MCC Course
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MCC Course
I am just wondering.
Is it greater to do an MCC course on a non-specific type aircraft, or it is better to do it on a specific type? E.g 737, A320, 747 or whatever.
There are some things arising...
Firstly, some say that doing an MCC in a specific type, eg 737, in an airline interview you may arise new questions asked from the interviewer, such as "tell me about the hudraulic system of the 737". This could be disastrous because you dont have the type rating of the 737 to know everything, but you are asked about it!!
Secondly, some say it is better to do it an a "all catch up jet sim", in a FTO which is known to be good in MCC's, to avoid the above paragraph.
I know that an MCC course will not save my life, nor it will find me a job more easiily.
What is your opinion? Many thanks
Is it greater to do an MCC course on a non-specific type aircraft, or it is better to do it on a specific type? E.g 737, A320, 747 or whatever.
There are some things arising...
Firstly, some say that doing an MCC in a specific type, eg 737, in an airline interview you may arise new questions asked from the interviewer, such as "tell me about the hudraulic system of the 737". This could be disastrous because you dont have the type rating of the 737 to know everything, but you are asked about it!!
Secondly, some say it is better to do it an a "all catch up jet sim", in a FTO which is known to be good in MCC's, to avoid the above paragraph.
I know that an MCC course will not save my life, nor it will find me a job more easiily.
What is your opinion? Many thanks
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My opinion is do it at a reputable school with the lowest price.
When people do their CPL and IR at one school but then go off elsewhere to do an MCC it really makes me scratch my head. I can't help but ask why. They live near the school where they did a CPL/IR...this school offers MCC but why do they shoot off 100 miles across the country to go elsewhere? They're answers are because they want to do it on a full motion 747 or a A320 sim because "it's a better MCC". They seem to miss the fact that the MCC is done mainly on autopilot and it makes absolutely no difference what aircraft you do it on.
Mine was done in a generic sim and I believe, well the training captain at my job interview on my sim assessment certainly believed, that my MCC skills were up to a good standard. And yes I got the job. They also asked us all at the interview what we MCC'd on, the majority did theirs on a generic sim. A couple on a 737/A320.
Tweedle dumb and tweedle dee who went off to a 737 full motion simulator remain jobless and also paid 3 times as much as I did for the MCC. Makes me laugh really, they were so deluded they'd get a jet job by doing so.
As you have already said, the type of aircraft sim you do your MCC on has absolutely zero effect on the job you will get. In a sim assessment with an airline you are only expected to be able to fly the aircraft you last flew, DA42 or Seneca or whatever, and that's it. If they know you did a 737 MCC and you go to a 737 interview, they may hold you to a higher standard than that of the guy on a generic sim configured as a King Air or whatever.
I see many guys leave my modular school and shoot off to Oxford to get onto the Ryanair 737 MCC course thinking they'll get a job in Ryanair. I know 8 guys who did that, only 1 works at Ryanair now.
So to conclude. Don't go for an overpriced MCC on a A320/737/747...it's pointless. Go somewhere that's good and cheap, and if that's a 737 sim or a generic sim that doesn't matter. You can get a good MCC for under £2k.
Bit of a rant....
When people do their CPL and IR at one school but then go off elsewhere to do an MCC it really makes me scratch my head. I can't help but ask why. They live near the school where they did a CPL/IR...this school offers MCC but why do they shoot off 100 miles across the country to go elsewhere? They're answers are because they want to do it on a full motion 747 or a A320 sim because "it's a better MCC". They seem to miss the fact that the MCC is done mainly on autopilot and it makes absolutely no difference what aircraft you do it on.
Mine was done in a generic sim and I believe, well the training captain at my job interview on my sim assessment certainly believed, that my MCC skills were up to a good standard. And yes I got the job. They also asked us all at the interview what we MCC'd on, the majority did theirs on a generic sim. A couple on a 737/A320.
Tweedle dumb and tweedle dee who went off to a 737 full motion simulator remain jobless and also paid 3 times as much as I did for the MCC. Makes me laugh really, they were so deluded they'd get a jet job by doing so.
As you have already said, the type of aircraft sim you do your MCC on has absolutely zero effect on the job you will get. In a sim assessment with an airline you are only expected to be able to fly the aircraft you last flew, DA42 or Seneca or whatever, and that's it. If they know you did a 737 MCC and you go to a 737 interview, they may hold you to a higher standard than that of the guy on a generic sim configured as a King Air or whatever.
I see many guys leave my modular school and shoot off to Oxford to get onto the Ryanair 737 MCC course thinking they'll get a job in Ryanair. I know 8 guys who did that, only 1 works at Ryanair now.
So to conclude. Don't go for an overpriced MCC on a A320/737/747...it's pointless. Go somewhere that's good and cheap, and if that's a 737 sim or a generic sim that doesn't matter. You can get a good MCC for under £2k.
Bit of a rant....
Last edited by pudoc; 20th Apr 2013 at 20:54.
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I would agree. But you can also combine the two. I mean in the UK there are a few good school with very good reputations that although not cheap they are very reasonably priced. If your set on full motion what about doing it at European. Good name , reasonable price and an excellent simulator. Which I think may still be the 737 or the 747. Or CRM Europe. It might not be a boeing or airbus but the course they run has a fantastic reputation and my airline is full of guys who went and had a brilliant experience. Myself I went to Simtech in Dublin. Nothing but praise for them at all and was by far the best money I spend whilst training but then it was slightly more expensive for the combined MCC/JOC FNPT2 737-800 although highly recommended. Do I think it was beneficial yes and no. Just so happens I went for a 737 interview and this obviously helped. As the previous post said go for reputation and the reviews from others. Although from the reviews if money was no option the experience of my friends at OAA did really impress me but I would still choose Simtech as the quality of the simulator, instructors and the facilities were highly impressive.
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I have to agree with some of the points pudoc has already made.
One thing a lot of people fail to appreciate is what the MCC is for. Its about you as a pilot learning the skills to work as part of a team in a multi crew environment.
No. The MCC is NOT a type rating. There is no technical ground school, therefore it would be unfair for someone to ask you those sort of questions.
Doing the MCC on a full motion jet simulator is a lot of fun, but not necessary.
One thing a lot of people fail to appreciate is what the MCC is for. Its about you as a pilot learning the skills to work as part of a team in a multi crew environment.
Firstly, some say that doing an MCC in a specific type, eg 737, in an airline interview you may arise new questions asked from the interviewer, such as "tell me about the hudraulic system of the 737"
Doing the MCC on a full motion jet simulator is a lot of fun, but not necessary.
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CAT3C, I know what an MCC is.
Also I would love to do it on a full motion sim.
I ask if I could bring myself inadvertently in a difficult situation in an interview. (I know that this is unfair, thats why I am asking!)
E.g, I dont know if its true, some say that in oxford 737 MCC (I know its not full motion) they learn you many things for the 737, so companies know that and they ask you more details on the 737. I dont know if this is the reality, and i wont be surprized if this is just a bad rumour.
Also I would love to do it on a full motion sim.
I ask if I could bring myself inadvertently in a difficult situation in an interview. (I know that this is unfair, thats why I am asking!)
E.g, I dont know if its true, some say that in oxford 737 MCC (I know its not full motion) they learn you many things for the 737, so companies know that and they ask you more details on the 737. I dont know if this is the reality, and i wont be surprized if this is just a bad rumour.
Last edited by Lantirn; 21st Apr 2013 at 14:10.
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I know its not full motion
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Did my mcc on a kingair FNPT2 now doing my TR with RYR... My opinion, mcc is a waste of money cause you could gain the same exp in a C172 sim (if there was one). Its all down to crm skills at the end.. Pay attention to that instead of what box you re going to be put in!
Then again if you re not short on €/$ i guess you could go for the more expensive toy, just for fun...
Then again if you re not short on €/$ i guess you could go for the more expensive toy, just for fun...
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If you are close to any type rating course in near future you should consider doing the MCC on the given type. That will ease your TR course and improve your proficiency afterwards, otherwise do it cheap but on EFIS equiped sim.
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Or just do it combined with the type rating and save 15 hours of sim time (reduction is from 25 to 10 hours for the MCC Course if you do it combined with the type rating).
But people nowadays rather throw money away by doing MCC+JOC (why the latter is neeeded is beyond me) on a full-motion sim and then doing the TR for the same type as was the sim for MCC/JOC.
But people nowadays rather throw money away by doing MCC+JOC (why the latter is neeeded is beyond me) on a full-motion sim and then doing the TR for the same type as was the sim for MCC/JOC.
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People who say this course is a waste of time have no business flying multi crew.
CRM and working within an airline crew is a very difficult challenge having just flown 250-1500 hours single crew. The process of getting you to work effectively within that crew is a very long one, and starts with ATPL studies and never really ends.
The MCC is just one step along that way. It isn't a case of there's your MCC, now you're multi crew, it is the foundation that will continue through your type rating, and then at every LPC and OPC, and 6-12 monthly classroom discussions on top of that.
It is in no way a type specific course, but I'd go for a full motion sim if available as it is good to have some exposure to these before doing a type rating, but the quality of the training is more important than the quality of the sim, and the aircraft type is irrelevant.
CRM and working within an airline crew is a very difficult challenge having just flown 250-1500 hours single crew. The process of getting you to work effectively within that crew is a very long one, and starts with ATPL studies and never really ends.
The MCC is just one step along that way. It isn't a case of there's your MCC, now you're multi crew, it is the foundation that will continue through your type rating, and then at every LPC and OPC, and 6-12 monthly classroom discussions on top of that.
It is in no way a type specific course, but I'd go for a full motion sim if available as it is good to have some exposure to these before doing a type rating, but the quality of the training is more important than the quality of the sim, and the aircraft type is irrelevant.
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Simtech
Hi guys!
I'm close to the end of my IR training and I'm currently looking for a place to do the MCC/JOC.
I'm hesitating between Simtech and European Skybus. European is less expensive and it's on a full motion simulator. however, I've been told that Simtech has very good contacts in the industry (Ryanair and Flybe at least) and they can eventually help their student to have an interview. Is that true?
And of course, they seem very good!
So I don't know if it's worth paying 1500€ more to go to Simtech to have better chance to get an interview with an airline at the end?
I know that FLybe is not recruiting, but I'm pretty sure Ryanair will be recruiting again shortly..
Any thoughts about that?
Thanks!
I'm close to the end of my IR training and I'm currently looking for a place to do the MCC/JOC.
I'm hesitating between Simtech and European Skybus. European is less expensive and it's on a full motion simulator. however, I've been told that Simtech has very good contacts in the industry (Ryanair and Flybe at least) and they can eventually help their student to have an interview. Is that true?
And of course, they seem very good!
So I don't know if it's worth paying 1500€ more to go to Simtech to have better chance to get an interview with an airline at the end?
I know that FLybe is not recruiting, but I'm pretty sure Ryanair will be recruiting again shortly..
Any thoughts about that?
Thanks!
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MCC/JOC
FTE Jerez have a 737NG, and offer a combined MCC/JOC course.
The sim although fixed base has motion seats which is very realistic.
Expensive yes, but the quality is also a big YES as well.
Virtual Aviation, Cambridge, UK also have a fixed base 737NG. Not as expensive, but the quality is top notch. Definitely worth a closer look.
FFS are not necessary prior to type training.
You need more than MCC 5 to stand any chance of passing any sim ride, unless you regard yourself as a bit of an ace, in which case you would be better of going for the military fast jet route.
Check their websites for details.
The sim although fixed base has motion seats which is very realistic.
Expensive yes, but the quality is also a big YES as well.
Virtual Aviation, Cambridge, UK also have a fixed base 737NG. Not as expensive, but the quality is top notch. Definitely worth a closer look.
FFS are not necessary prior to type training.
You need more than MCC 5 to stand any chance of passing any sim ride, unless you regard yourself as a bit of an ace, in which case you would be better of going for the military fast jet route.
Check their websites for details.
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So I don't know if it's worth paying 1500€ more to go to Simtech
All MCCs are not the same, a KingAir minimum hours course may well leave you thinking you have wasted your money, a properly constructed MCC/JOC (and I don't mean just a couple of extra hours) with proper non-technical groundschool will tick the same box but also (i) train you much better for multi-crew ops and (ii) significantly improve your chances in sim assessments.
I disagree that full motion sims are required, to me it makes no difference. I do think that, from the point of view of flying characteristics, an aircraft type with podded engines is important for the pitch/power couple, a jet for the landing and approach technique, and flight speeds, and either a Boeing or Airbus autopilot for familiarity can help. A feedback from type rating trainers is that candidates are arriving with weak instrument flying skills particularly on the stabilised approach and that their scan is breaking down under pressure, presumably because of unfamiliarity with EFIS and flight director combinations. MCC isn't really about instrument rating training but I would expect a good training team to plug that gap as well.
Regarding autopilots I'd disagree with TryingToAvoidCBs, MCC shouldn't be a test of flying ability or a flying training exercise beyond familiarity with the features above. It should be about procedures and cockpit management. I would expect a well designed MCC to be conducted at least half on autopilot, maybe more.
de minimus non curat lex
Just reinforcing some of the points made by AW......
The MCC became mandatory on 1 July 1999 when JAR was formally adopted by the UK CAA for multi crew flying. So anyone applying for their first multi crew rating required to complete a MCC course.
It gave you a basic introduction to multi crew operations from an environment of the single pilot flying.
It taught you to interphase with the other crew member, and operate effectively as a crew, PF and PM, and follow a simple set of SOPs, and manage the workload as a crew.
The majority of the flying is with the AP engaged, because that is how a crew will operate in the real world.
Its primary purpose of the MCC course was not to improve your IF skills per se, but to get the "two actors" on the stage to get the words of the play correct, and learn their precise roles as PF & PM, which through CRM is a critical aspect of any sim ride as part of the interview process.
Hand flying and coping with the power/pitch is important, and does need to be mastered prior to any sim ride. Boeing & Airbus are ideal sizes to appreciate jet inertia/momentum dynamics. A Kingair will not give you this experience.
The MCC became mandatory on 1 July 1999 when JAR was formally adopted by the UK CAA for multi crew flying. So anyone applying for their first multi crew rating required to complete a MCC course.
It gave you a basic introduction to multi crew operations from an environment of the single pilot flying.
It taught you to interphase with the other crew member, and operate effectively as a crew, PF and PM, and follow a simple set of SOPs, and manage the workload as a crew.
The majority of the flying is with the AP engaged, because that is how a crew will operate in the real world.
Its primary purpose of the MCC course was not to improve your IF skills per se, but to get the "two actors" on the stage to get the words of the play correct, and learn their precise roles as PF & PM, which through CRM is a critical aspect of any sim ride as part of the interview process.
Hand flying and coping with the power/pitch is important, and does need to be mastered prior to any sim ride. Boeing & Airbus are ideal sizes to appreciate jet inertia/momentum dynamics. A Kingair will not give you this experience.
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Anyone here been to Sky4U MCC/JOC in Berlin? Looks really appealing at the moment in terms of what they offer for hours, its a 737NG sim (not a full motion), price is decent and they are quite flexible with dates. I don't know anyone personally who has completed his MCC there. Any feedback anyone regarding Instructors professionalism/experience , English level and whether it is widely recognised by the big airlines as a high quality MCC ? Thanks
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In the end I went there and am quite happy with the experience, quality of training and overall price. Simulator is really good and you get to stay in a hotel (at discounted rates) where the Sky4u offices are and 5 mins walk away from the sim. I don't know about the quality of training of other schools but I'm quite happy with Sky4U.
