Ryanair and Age (2012)
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Ryanair and Age (2012)
No doubt this has been asked, but I want some FRESH insight. At 37, and having applied reapplied / updated profile with CAE / Ryanair numerous times, assume perhaps my age is a factor. First time passes in EVERYTHING from PPL to IR, 92% ATPLs etc. All done in UK modular. AGE?
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I feel your pain man, and I cannot understand how they get away with is...the whole anti-age discrimination laws seem not to be enforced after all, at least when it comes to Ryanair.
People may argue with you on this, saying that perhaps the problem is on the way you're pitching your case( CV & cover letter) not selling yourself properly, but I must say that we hear this stories so many times that I've started to think that this is a case of discrimination. Problem is how you're going to prove it and who to report to...Would be interesting to get as many people together as possible and write to one of the newspapers and request that they look into it,you never know...
People may argue with you on this, saying that perhaps the problem is on the way you're pitching your case( CV & cover letter) not selling yourself properly, but I must say that we hear this stories so many times that I've started to think that this is a case of discrimination. Problem is how you're going to prove it and who to report to...Would be interesting to get as many people together as possible and write to one of the newspapers and request that they look into it,you never know...
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Last time I touched this, I got a quite aggressive reaction from a guy that flies for Ryan, saying is not the age, we are just not good enough and they could see it from our CV and he said he is confident that their evaluation of our CV is so accurate,that he was happy we were not given the chance to fly with him.
The same CV I used was the one given to students from OAA and a friend got an A320 job using the same layout with minimum hrs.
I also had first time pass, 98% ground school, Bach. in A/C Engineering, 6 TR as an engineer..........commercial and executive aviation background but I am 32
The same CV I used was the one given to students from OAA and a friend got an A320 job using the same layout with minimum hrs.
I also had first time pass, 98% ground school, Bach. in A/C Engineering, 6 TR as an engineer..........commercial and executive aviation background but I am 32
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I suspect I am the person to whom CY333 refers. He stated categorically that there was a cutoff age limit of 30 for Ryanair. As I joined the airline over the age of 30 I replied that I could say with certainty that he was incorrect. I also have many colleagues who joined at far greater ages and you will see several grey-haired FOs. CY333 refused to accept my statement of fact and reacted rather badly.
The remainder of his first paragraph above is figment of his own imagination, but we can draw our own conclusions as to why he might have been rejected when others of his age and older are accepted.
It is unfortunately true to say that your chances of first-time pilot employment decline with age due to a number of factors. To state that there are absolute limits in Ryanair is incorrect.
The remainder of his first paragraph above is figment of his own imagination, but we can draw our own conclusions as to why he might have been rejected when others of his age and older are accepted.
It is unfortunately true to say that your chances of first-time pilot employment decline with age due to a number of factors. To state that there are absolute limits in Ryanair is incorrect.
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I joined at well over 30 at a time where supply far outstripped supply and RYR could take their pick. I have met many others who also fit this group.
There is no doubt in my mind that age is a factor that the airline takes into account in selection. As older pilots, especially as cadets, we are a higher training risk. That said, the fact the I, and others, exist in the organisation shows that you did not get passed over solely based on your years.
There is no doubt in my mind that age is a factor that the airline takes into account in selection. As older pilots, especially as cadets, we are a higher training risk. That said, the fact the I, and others, exist in the organisation shows that you did not get passed over solely based on your years.
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there are plenty of over 30's who have joined Ryanair, myself included, likewise there are females and (shhhhh. don't tell anyone) even the Irish, these conspiracy theories are great! People wrongly assume that just because they have passed all their exams and skills tests that they are owed an interview with Ryanair, I assume you have applied to other airlines and have had no response? I can't imagine for a minute you will be accusing these airlines of age discrimination because they have been so rude as to not offer such an excellent example of perfection a job?
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No there are no "official" limits with Ryanair. Having tested the system, and knowing many pilots working for Ryanair it is quite clear what is going on.
First "Torque Tonight", you don't state if those "older" are Cadets or experience FO's.
From what I have gathered, they are doing it in the way, that they every now and again take one guy "older" - a bit like the lottery, just to make sure their paperwork looks good, and that they are not discriminating.
I did the "test", sent in 2 applications with CAE with several months gap, on one I did a Typo, easy to do as it is a drop down box, instead of DOB 69, I put 79, within 5 days I had a reply from CAE to send my CV to them! Exactly the same as "ALL THE GUYS I KNEW" from my flight school got, they all got this response with 5 to 15 days from submitting their application. They ALL got called to interview.
(my first application made 3 - 4 months earlier NEVER got a response)
Now maybe my CV was bad? All first series passes, top ATPL scores, and loads of experience, I know some of the other guys, no offence, but they partial IR, low ATPL average scores, and even had some fails on their ATPL's, they all got interview, not all of them got offered a job, but most of them did!
The cut-off is not 30 officially, and it might be slightly higher, but there is a cut off where they prefer not to offer jobs, due to age.
Now the logic is twisted on this, because they way it is now, pilots will come and go fast with companies such as RYR, as they go to better jobs!
Haven given an older pilot a chance, options would have been less, and they could maybe had a more stabile pool of pilots, but than again, RYR also make money by training pilots, so money talks again
First "Torque Tonight", you don't state if those "older" are Cadets or experience FO's.
From what I have gathered, they are doing it in the way, that they every now and again take one guy "older" - a bit like the lottery, just to make sure their paperwork looks good, and that they are not discriminating.
I did the "test", sent in 2 applications with CAE with several months gap, on one I did a Typo, easy to do as it is a drop down box, instead of DOB 69, I put 79, within 5 days I had a reply from CAE to send my CV to them! Exactly the same as "ALL THE GUYS I KNEW" from my flight school got, they all got this response with 5 to 15 days from submitting their application. They ALL got called to interview.
(my first application made 3 - 4 months earlier NEVER got a response)
Now maybe my CV was bad? All first series passes, top ATPL scores, and loads of experience, I know some of the other guys, no offence, but they partial IR, low ATPL average scores, and even had some fails on their ATPL's, they all got interview, not all of them got offered a job, but most of them did!
The cut-off is not 30 officially, and it might be slightly higher, but there is a cut off where they prefer not to offer jobs, due to age.
Now the logic is twisted on this, because they way it is now, pilots will come and go fast with companies such as RYR, as they go to better jobs!
Haven given an older pilot a chance, options would have been less, and they could maybe had a more stabile pool of pilots, but than again, RYR also make money by training pilots, so money talks again
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Perhaps i could offer an opinion-
As others have said alot of guys use FR as a step up to better jobs, and ryanair and the likes are more than aware of this, so naturally for the time they work for your company, you want to get your moneys worth.
Whilst not wanting to make a sweeping generalisation, older chaps are more likely to have wives/girlfriends maybe kids and a house with a mortgage. Where as the younguns straight out of flight school generally have no ties and FR can sling them around europe without too much trouble.
All the FR chaps I know have at some point in their career have been a long way from home- and stayed there for a significant amount of time, so perhaps this comes into consideration when Lo-Co's are hiring cadets.
As others have said alot of guys use FR as a step up to better jobs, and ryanair and the likes are more than aware of this, so naturally for the time they work for your company, you want to get your moneys worth.
Whilst not wanting to make a sweeping generalisation, older chaps are more likely to have wives/girlfriends maybe kids and a house with a mortgage. Where as the younguns straight out of flight school generally have no ties and FR can sling them around europe without too much trouble.
All the FR chaps I know have at some point in their career have been a long way from home- and stayed there for a significant amount of time, so perhaps this comes into consideration when Lo-Co's are hiring cadets.
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I do know older guys who have got into Ryanair, a personal friend too. So yes they do take older pilots. Indeed I'm way over 37, a long way in fact. But I would fancy my chances of getting an interview. But that's because I'm relatively well connected. Sadly 20 years too late
(Incidently that doesn't mean I would be offered a job, just an interview)
But Ryanair has a decidedly opaque selection system at times. Two people can apply, one will get an interview and the other ignored. Truckflyer's test may be age related or maybe it's was a coincidence. Difficult to tell.
(Incidently that doesn't mean I would be offered a job, just an interview)But Ryanair has a decidedly opaque selection system at times. Two people can apply, one will get an interview and the other ignored. Truckflyer's test may be age related or maybe it's was a coincidence. Difficult to tell.
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[QUOTEinstead of DOB 69, I put 79,[/QUOTE]
with those dob's, 79 still puts you at 30plus, 69 at 40plus, whats your point? Training risk is a lot higher at 40plus than 30, I don't think there will be that many companies looking to employ cadets within that age range, sad as it may seem, all airlines are in a position where they can pick and choose who they want, that's just life i'm afraid
with those dob's, 79 still puts you at 30plus, 69 at 40plus, whats your point? Training risk is a lot higher at 40plus than 30, I don't think there will be that many companies looking to employ cadets within that age range, sad as it may seem, all airlines are in a position where they can pick and choose who they want, that's just life i'm afraid
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Well during the time I tried, ALL, and I mean ALL, that I knew who applied with Ryanair got an interview, let me add they were all younger guys, came from same flight school.
Me and few others from the same flight school, above 35 did not get a sniff at an interview as far as I can recall.
What are the chances that happen?
Personally I did feel upset when it happen, and BALPA was red hot on the case, but the irony was, that because I was not an employed pilot they could not look into unless I paid for the whole process myself.
However in hindsight, and also something I thought of that time, no use to make a fuss, it will not help me, and I did not want be perceived as a trouble maker. Thinking that somewhere down line, who knows what paths might cross, I would not want to have burnt my bridges just because of this.
It is quite clear, still it is also quite foggy!
It is one of the obstacles that me and others have to take into consideration, when we start to late.
The thing that you get flogged around europe, should NOT be a real issue for anybody starting this, you should not expect that you have would be stationed in the UK anyhow for the first X number of years.
However the way I saw it, having been able to wait 2 - 3 years to get a UK base, would not have been an issue, it was something I would have expected anyway.
Me and few others from the same flight school, above 35 did not get a sniff at an interview as far as I can recall.
What are the chances that happen?
Personally I did feel upset when it happen, and BALPA was red hot on the case, but the irony was, that because I was not an employed pilot they could not look into unless I paid for the whole process myself.
However in hindsight, and also something I thought of that time, no use to make a fuss, it will not help me, and I did not want be perceived as a trouble maker. Thinking that somewhere down line, who knows what paths might cross, I would not want to have burnt my bridges just because of this.
It is quite clear, still it is also quite foggy!
It is one of the obstacles that me and others have to take into consideration, when we start to late.
The thing that you get flogged around europe, should NOT be a real issue for anybody starting this, you should not expect that you have would be stationed in the UK anyhow for the first X number of years.
However the way I saw it, having been able to wait 2 - 3 years to get a UK base, would not have been an issue, it was something I would have expected anyway.
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I would take it as a lucky escape and move on. There are many FR pilots that have an ATPL plus thousands of hours and can't get out of the place. There are only so many jobs to go around in aviation for experienced pilots which give you a base close to home. No HR department in their right mind will employ solely from one outfit so you could well have become a statistic. Using FR as a stepping stone isn't a wise move in my opinion. It used to be when they were a lot smaller but not anymore.
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That said, the fact the I, and others, exist in the organisation shows that you did not get passed over solely based on your years.
Who is the I?
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First time passes in EVERYTHING from PPL to IR, 92% ATPLs etc. All done in UK modular.
Last edited by pudoc; 6th Jun 2012 at 16:14.
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DILLIGAF,
Very fair and sensible question. I am not accusing other airlines of discrimination, no. I have contacts at numerous airlines due to my OPS / Dispatch background, and other airlines seem to be issuing redundancy warnings and profit warnings. BA FPP is not for me so they are welcome to ab-initio rich kids with 100K to self-fund. Other carriers want type rating and time. Subject to that, Moses would be welcome. 55 year old friend just straight into LHS at Norwegian. Ryanair is only airline which appears to be taking low hour people. That is why I am referring to THEM specifically.
Very fair and sensible question. I am not accusing other airlines of discrimination, no. I have contacts at numerous airlines due to my OPS / Dispatch background, and other airlines seem to be issuing redundancy warnings and profit warnings. BA FPP is not for me so they are welcome to ab-initio rich kids with 100K to self-fund. Other carriers want type rating and time. Subject to that, Moses would be welcome. 55 year old friend just straight into LHS at Norwegian. Ryanair is only airline which appears to be taking low hour people. That is why I am referring to THEM specifically.
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It's funny, that every time this topic comes up, you have some that are defending Ryanair like it is their own granny!!!
With quite strong words such, "who do you think you are, that have a god given right to get an interview with Ryanair!"
This happens every time and makes me laugh!
There are currently loads of "over-qualified instructors", with great experience between 30 - 45, some of these with several thousand hours on SEP, and probably few hundred hours or more on MEP.
These do NOT get a chance with the Ryanair, why?
These are not even novice cadets, with regards to their experience level!
I am pretty sure, it does not suit the Ryanair business model to have "older pilots", because they have their own "budget" of income trough the training program!
If MOL saves on giving pilots a bottle of water, which probably would have cost him 10p, imagine the "savings"/ "income" of training new pilots. It does suit RYR that pilots come and go, and don't stay to long, to make sure their training department is profitable!
I am sure there are stats around about the average time of staying with the company, I would guess probably around 2 - 4 / 5 years maximum.
Ryanair this way got a cheap pilot for this period, and are ready to wait for the next one to pay their dues in the next round.
33.300 Euros total package for TR - that's £27000 for a TR that if you would go and purchase this on the "free market" would cost you around £20.000 incl. base training.
Add to the fact, that companies like Boeing, normally with EVERY AIRCRAFT SOLD, include a package deal of paid TR, not sure for Boeing, but heard with Airbus, they normally give you 4 TR as a part of the package!
Who knows what deal Ryanair has, but I am pretty sure there is a golden hand-shake there somewhere between RYR and CAE!
With quite strong words such, "who do you think you are, that have a god given right to get an interview with Ryanair!"
This happens every time and makes me laugh!
There are currently loads of "over-qualified instructors", with great experience between 30 - 45, some of these with several thousand hours on SEP, and probably few hundred hours or more on MEP.
These do NOT get a chance with the Ryanair, why?
These are not even novice cadets, with regards to their experience level!
I am pretty sure, it does not suit the Ryanair business model to have "older pilots", because they have their own "budget" of income trough the training program!
If MOL saves on giving pilots a bottle of water, which probably would have cost him 10p, imagine the "savings"/ "income" of training new pilots. It does suit RYR that pilots come and go, and don't stay to long, to make sure their training department is profitable!
I am sure there are stats around about the average time of staying with the company, I would guess probably around 2 - 4 / 5 years maximum.
Ryanair this way got a cheap pilot for this period, and are ready to wait for the next one to pay their dues in the next round.
33.300 Euros total package for TR - that's £27000 for a TR that if you would go and purchase this on the "free market" would cost you around £20.000 incl. base training.
Add to the fact, that companies like Boeing, normally with EVERY AIRCRAFT SOLD, include a package deal of paid TR, not sure for Boeing, but heard with Airbus, they normally give you 4 TR as a part of the package!
Who knows what deal Ryanair has, but I am pretty sure there is a golden hand-shake there somewhere between RYR and CAE!
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DILLIGAF -
What is the training risk RYR is taking for somebody over 40?
Does RYR pay for the TR?
The money paid, covers ALL training that the cadet will be required to do!
I would have understood if RYR paid your TR, but they don't pay you anything, nada! You pay, and than you pray!
What is the training risk RYR is taking for somebody over 40?
Does RYR pay for the TR?
The money paid, covers ALL training that the cadet will be required to do!
I would have understood if RYR paid your TR, but they don't pay you anything, nada! You pay, and than you pray!
truck flyer- you are correct there, but you miss one obvious point, and I'm probably biased, but have you considered that RYR actually want you to pass their type rating course, as they need people on the line? If they were in the business of purely selling type ratings I could understand, but losing 10% of the their pilot workforce this year alone, is a good enough reason for me to understand why they want to get people online. With the amount of demand for Captains both from DEC and upgrades, they don't have the sim time or manpower to waste on giving a type rating course to someone they feel may not pass.
That said, I don't agree that an older chap is necessarily more of a risk then a younger chap, but I don't do the recruiting. If they see age as a training risk it's their prerogative, they can hide this fact pretty easy as has already been mentioned above, by hiring the odd person over their normal limit. However, I also don't agree that there is such thing as an 'over qualified' instructor. I'm sure that if you put a 200 hr fresh cadet in a sim assessment with an FI of 2000 hours, the FI 'should' be better, but in all honesty I'm sure this isn't as accurate as you might think. FI probably doesn't do a lot of IR flying (and if they do its the student doing it under the 'hood'), hasn't maybe done their MCC in a few years, where as the cadet is straight out of the training. Doesn't change the fact that they should be given the same chance at least.
You don't appear to fall into this bracket, but there are plenty of 200 hr guys that see RYR as a Plan b, c or even d when they finish training. Once they started leaning towards plan d, they are immediately pi$$ed off when RYR don't start begging them for an interview. When you refer to guys sticking up for RYR like it's their own granny, its only due to guys I just described trying to undermine the job those of us already in RYR feel we earned.
Best of luck though.
That said, I don't agree that an older chap is necessarily more of a risk then a younger chap, but I don't do the recruiting. If they see age as a training risk it's their prerogative, they can hide this fact pretty easy as has already been mentioned above, by hiring the odd person over their normal limit. However, I also don't agree that there is such thing as an 'over qualified' instructor. I'm sure that if you put a 200 hr fresh cadet in a sim assessment with an FI of 2000 hours, the FI 'should' be better, but in all honesty I'm sure this isn't as accurate as you might think. FI probably doesn't do a lot of IR flying (and if they do its the student doing it under the 'hood'), hasn't maybe done their MCC in a few years, where as the cadet is straight out of the training. Doesn't change the fact that they should be given the same chance at least.
You don't appear to fall into this bracket, but there are plenty of 200 hr guys that see RYR as a Plan b, c or even d when they finish training. Once they started leaning towards plan d, they are immediately pi$$ed off when RYR don't start begging them for an interview. When you refer to guys sticking up for RYR like it's their own granny, its only due to guys I just described trying to undermine the job those of us already in RYR feel we earned.
Best of luck though.
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wangus - fair points, unfortunately RYR and Easy are the only two now recruiting low hrs guys and gals, almost identical contracts! sadly its their game and so their rules, and to be as successful as they are they have got to be savvy at this HR and discrimination thing, it can't go on forever though, i'm sure the wheel will come off one day, and is some style!
Truckflyer - I am just playing devils advocate, there is a training risk involved with someone who is more mature, this is not my opinion, but a scientifically studied fact. However I am of the opinion that each person should be viewed as an individual and treated fairly. There are a lot of cocky little s**** in RYR who are arrogant and believe themselves to be the next best thing in aviation, in contrast there are a lot of very mature younger guys. I am sure the same thing is evident in those of more mature years. Its not all about flying either, you've also got to include CRM and basic social skills, it has been said to me on more than one occasion how nice it is to fly with an "older" FO as we tend to have more to talk about than the younger aerosexuals!
as always, best of luck to all who apply, whichever airline it may be, its all the same job at the end of the day!
Truckflyer - I am just playing devils advocate, there is a training risk involved with someone who is more mature, this is not my opinion, but a scientifically studied fact. However I am of the opinion that each person should be viewed as an individual and treated fairly. There are a lot of cocky little s**** in RYR who are arrogant and believe themselves to be the next best thing in aviation, in contrast there are a lot of very mature younger guys. I am sure the same thing is evident in those of more mature years. Its not all about flying either, you've also got to include CRM and basic social skills, it has been said to me on more than one occasion how nice it is to fly with an "older" FO as we tend to have more to talk about than the younger aerosexuals!
as always, best of luck to all who apply, whichever airline it may be, its all the same job at the end of the day!