Ryanair and Age (2012)
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Depone,
I do agree, I would have been happy to done the old route if I had known it would lead to something! And if I had been at least 10 years younger!
However the tragedy now, is that these guys who took the old route, thought it would get them into the right position, after several thousand hours SEP and MEP TT, they discover that nobody wants this experience anymore, not many appreciates this!
So now they are stuck, maybe expired IR's, working for peanuts, unless they pay their own TR and do EJ program P2F they have no chance!
I know one guy, he had over 4000 hours, SEP/MEP - was instructing and air taxi. He was late 30's, 38 or 39, than he paid is own TR without any job guarantee on the 737, by some miracle he got a job in the Middle East, not a very well known company, but was a job, he stayed there or few years, i think around 3 - 4 years, and last year he got a very good job with a European career, where he when he gets his command will be close to £100K a year.
Life is what you make it yourself, and if people like Cowhorse, think that pilots can't get away from RYR, I guess it is because they get early command, and than the pay is good, all depends on the base!
My friend was miserable until now in February when he got told he got temporary base at Stansted for 8 - 9 months, so he could be close to his wife and daughter!
But what i say, you should think of this issues before you go spending £40.000 - £100.000 on training!
There has to be some realism, I know of companies where the pay is much worse than this, and young and older guys get trough it, because end of the day there will be something better coming up in the horizon, but at least you in it, instead of sitting waiting for Mr Godot!
I do agree, I would have been happy to done the old route if I had known it would lead to something! And if I had been at least 10 years younger!
However the tragedy now, is that these guys who took the old route, thought it would get them into the right position, after several thousand hours SEP and MEP TT, they discover that nobody wants this experience anymore, not many appreciates this!
So now they are stuck, maybe expired IR's, working for peanuts, unless they pay their own TR and do EJ program P2F they have no chance!
I know one guy, he had over 4000 hours, SEP/MEP - was instructing and air taxi. He was late 30's, 38 or 39, than he paid is own TR without any job guarantee on the 737, by some miracle he got a job in the Middle East, not a very well known company, but was a job, he stayed there or few years, i think around 3 - 4 years, and last year he got a very good job with a European career, where he when he gets his command will be close to £100K a year.
Life is what you make it yourself, and if people like Cowhorse, think that pilots can't get away from RYR, I guess it is because they get early command, and than the pay is good, all depends on the base!
My friend was miserable until now in February when he got told he got temporary base at Stansted for 8 - 9 months, so he could be close to his wife and daughter!
But what i say, you should think of this issues before you go spending £40.000 - £100.000 on training!
There has to be some realism, I know of companies where the pay is much worse than this, and young and older guys get trough it, because end of the day there will be something better coming up in the horizon, but at least you in it, instead of sitting waiting for Mr Godot!
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I agree with truckflyer as most of my younger collegue students got offered job by RYR, or at least an interview, while I never got the chance.
I think that the RYR recruiters are very smart. If you don't want to be accused from being an unequal opportunity employer, it is better to interview once in a while an older candidate and even offer him a job, than sending the older ones a standard mail saying not matching their profile. All the profiles in their database are the same except on sex, age, flight experience and some other stuff of minor importance.
They don't send the older candidates the standard rejection mail because it would be to obvious so they send you nothing, BUT they do this also with younger candidates just as a cover up.
As we all know they only want low-houred pilots and guys/girls makes no difference for them.
For me it's obvious their system is waterproof.
But in my opinion it's their perfect right to do this.
I think that the RYR recruiters are very smart. If you don't want to be accused from being an unequal opportunity employer, it is better to interview once in a while an older candidate and even offer him a job, than sending the older ones a standard mail saying not matching their profile. All the profiles in their database are the same except on sex, age, flight experience and some other stuff of minor importance.
They don't send the older candidates the standard rejection mail because it would be to obvious so they send you nothing, BUT they do this also with younger candidates just as a cover up.
As we all know they only want low-houred pilots and guys/girls makes no difference for them.
For me it's obvious their system is waterproof.
But in my opinion it's their perfect right to do this.
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CY333
Is this CV "The same CV I used was the one given to students from OAA", available online?
I saw this comment in one of your posts, and I would like to compare it with mine.
Is this CV "The same CV I used was the one given to students from OAA", available online?
I saw this comment in one of your posts, and I would like to compare it with mine.
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This age debate!
I am early 30's and completed integrated training back in Jan 10. There were 4 people on my course of 21 who were all above the age of 30. All 4 of us have applied to FR via CAE and OAA and not one of us have heard a thing! My 3 housemates from my course applied at the same time as me (early to mid-20's) and were all invited for interview within a couple of weeks. Along with several (in my opinion) weaker candidates have had interviews and got the job. All 3 of my housemates have been with FR now and online for about 18 months. I completed my course 3-4 months quicker than everybody except one on my course with average 95% on GS subjects, First Time CPL/IR (so not bad for an old man gathering duston the shelf). I think the FR scheme is a reasonable scheme, TR cost are offset from personal tax liability as well as expenses so you either pay for your typerating or pay the government the tax (nothing in life is free) and you get invaluable experience on JAR25 Aircraft which puts you in good stead for the rest of your career if you wish to leave FR. When you get out in the big bad world you will find there are a lot of careers that demand you to be away from home, away from the kids but this does not stop other employers in other fields of industry employing you. Ryanair sell themselves as a good company to be a part of, offering you a stable roster which enables you to commute home for free on the network in your uniform. This would not be a problem for me as I could manage being away from home for 5 days then home for 4. This would mean I get more time at home with the kids and wife than I do now! I really hope that Ryanair doesn’t discriminate against age but when you have worked in the world for a while and get a bit of life experience behind you then you realise unfortunately THIS DOES HAPPEN and people are not just delusional or Jealous (well maybe a little) and wish that there DOB wasjust a few years younger. The people I know at Ryanair speak to me on a weekly basis and still haven’t seen anyone come through in there 30’s as fresh FR Cadets! One captain said to me recently they wish they would change their recruitment to include some older candidates as he finds it difficult in his early 40’s to talk to someone in there early 20’s for 12- 14 hrs a day about things other than that necessary to conduct safe flight as they have nothing in common. They tend to have in this captains view poor CRM and interpersonal skills.
Fair play to anyone who is successful with getting an interview and most importantly the Job Offer to match, but think would I have got the same interview with Ryanair if I was 34? Just saying, after all you can’t blame someone’s CV for not getting an offer of interview if their CV hasn’t been requested.
Fair play to anyone who is successful with getting an interview and most importantly the Job Offer to match, but think would I have got the same interview with Ryanair if I was 34? Just saying, after all you can’t blame someone’s CV for not getting an offer of interview if their CV hasn’t been requested.
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I wonder who sets the standards for what CV's should get requested, probably CAE have some responsibility too, as they are the ones cherry picking all the applications as they wish!
That's what makes this complicated, as they can easily blame each other!
That's what makes this complicated, as they can easily blame each other!
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They probably mean 40.000 Euros!
27000 euro + VAT, I think that gives you around 32.500 Euros.
Assume a place to stay for 6 weeks, £1500 or - not the Ritz, if you use Ibis, expect around £40 - £50 a night minimum.
So now you getting close to 35.000 Euros.
Some RYR pilot will probably tell you the main details of this, but it takes time from interview approved to you start TR also, a friend of mine waited 6 months from he passed the interview and started the TR!
Waiting around, not being able to commit to any other work, will cost you money too, remember that!
If you lucky you might have some work while you waiting, but who knows what each situation is!
27000 euro + VAT, I think that gives you around 32.500 Euros.
Assume a place to stay for 6 weeks, £1500 or - not the Ritz, if you use Ibis, expect around £40 - £50 a night minimum.
So now you getting close to 35.000 Euros.
Some RYR pilot will probably tell you the main details of this, but it takes time from interview approved to you start TR also, a friend of mine waited 6 months from he passed the interview and started the TR!
Waiting around, not being able to commit to any other work, will cost you money too, remember that!
If you lucky you might have some work while you waiting, but who knows what each situation is!
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Okay so what's the deal with the 6month wait after TR, are you unpaid during line training or is it downtime? Not sure I would feel comfortable being away from the flight deck for 6 months then having to fly my first pax flight!
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wangus,
I think in 2010 there was some specific demand for RYR...
Finished in 2010 feb, via CAE, I was 29. All my classmates (9) applied directly through the secretary in a simplified application form which was sent for processing through amsterdam first.
We were a more than decently brewed folks ...
Who got picked ? Simply the most selling ones, 2x 20-22 yo guys, one of them with military experience, the other is an aviation geek and 1x30 yo guy who had the most "visual impact" athletic with some work experience in a field where nice suits were used.
At that precise time they were looking for specific types, nowadays, in the following classes ... sometimes 8 or 9 guys have a chance to get interviews, I'm pretty sure I would have had my chance these days
(first passes everywhere ... 93%atpl (but who cares right ? multiple choice questions...)
I think in 2010 there was some specific demand for RYR...
Finished in 2010 feb, via CAE, I was 29. All my classmates (9) applied directly through the secretary in a simplified application form which was sent for processing through amsterdam first.
We were a more than decently brewed folks ...
Who got picked ? Simply the most selling ones, 2x 20-22 yo guys, one of them with military experience, the other is an aviation geek and 1x30 yo guy who had the most "visual impact" athletic with some work experience in a field where nice suits were used.
At that precise time they were looking for specific types, nowadays, in the following classes ... sometimes 8 or 9 guys have a chance to get interviews, I'm pretty sure I would have had my chance these days
(first passes everywhere ... 93%atpl (but who cares right ? multiple choice questions...)
Last edited by Jetdriver; 10th Jul 2012 at 12:39.
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Someone posted in these forums a link from a vacancy notice from TAP for pilots. I don't know Portuguese but it seemed to me that they clearly stated that the candidates should have 1000 hrs and not be older than 35 (or something like that someone else could clarify this). Aegean Airlines also when they have a vacancy they also have an age limit for pilots, it should be 32 or something if my memory serves me well.
So, if i got this right, you have airlines that they have an age limit and no one cares about it and you have Ryanair which has not an age limit, officially, but its obvious that it prefers younger guys. I am also 32 and i have commenced my modular training but based on these facts i don't think that i would be the ideal candidate for many airlines.
By no means i am not a Ryanair fan but i don't understand why no one else mentioned other airlines which clearly have an age limit.
So, if i got this right, you have airlines that they have an age limit and no one cares about it and you have Ryanair which has not an age limit, officially, but its obvious that it prefers younger guys. I am also 32 and i have commenced my modular training but based on these facts i don't think that i would be the ideal candidate for many airlines.
By no means i am not a Ryanair fan but i don't understand why no one else mentioned other airlines which clearly have an age limit.
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Someone posted in these forums a link from a vacancy notice from TAP for pilots. I don't know Portuguese but it seemed to me that they clearly stated that the candidates should have 1000 hrs and not be older than 35 (or something like that someone else could clarify this).
Your qualifications are based in points, eg; if you are 21 years old, you get 8 points and for each year you have you lose 0,5 points until the 35, which you get 0 points if you have that age.
Then, you get points from your flight experience, if you are rated in airbus and have more than 500 in A31X/A32X series or in multi-pilot, etc. You also get points from your educational background and your LPE (level 4 gives you 0 points!)
All this is then factorized - eg, your flight experience counts 40% for your final score, your age 10%, etc.
Your final score will say in what position you are called for the interview - If you are in the top of the list, you are one of the best candidates to fill that vacancy.
Final note: TAP is one of the few airlines that pays your TR. Candidates don't have to pay any cent and, some years ago, you also got paid while you were doing your training (not sure if that still stands). I think that age limit is understandable
(sorry about off topic but was just to clarify as Tacitus said)
Last edited by plikee; 10th Jul 2012 at 14:06.
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I think that age limit is understandable
What makes someone, younger than me, better for the job?
Is it the fact of working for over 10 years with different kind of people, the fact of not being so impulsive on my decisions, the fact of being much more mature and thus creating a strong and good working environment around me, the fact that after having a well succeeded career I do know what I want for myself, the fact of being much more responsible and not going out at nights as used to be when I was mid 20's, etc, etc...
It is unfair (just so unfair) to not include someone in a job offer because of age and it is not understandable at all.
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Higher age limits are ridiculous in the modern world, and particularly in Ryanair.
Youthful exuberance is far less valuable in an airliner cockpit than maturity and life experience. I've flown with young Captains who clearly have no common sense but have enough hours and SOP adherence to be upgraded.
The idea that there is a training risk inherent in the older candidate is also misplaced. However, if Ryanair actually cared about safety they would be hoovering up pilots with flying experience and paying enough to retain staff.
Apart from the legacy carriers, there is little job security or loyalty, so the value of having cadets and indoctrinating them into a career is utterly pointless. The only counter-argument is that they are so young and impressionable that they will do what they're told without question. Hardly a virtue, hey...
Youthful exuberance is far less valuable in an airliner cockpit than maturity and life experience. I've flown with young Captains who clearly have no common sense but have enough hours and SOP adherence to be upgraded.
The idea that there is a training risk inherent in the older candidate is also misplaced. However, if Ryanair actually cared about safety they would be hoovering up pilots with flying experience and paying enough to retain staff.
Apart from the legacy carriers, there is little job security or loyalty, so the value of having cadets and indoctrinating them into a career is utterly pointless. The only counter-argument is that they are so young and impressionable that they will do what they're told without question. Hardly a virtue, hey...
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I feel sorry for the situation, and I don't think the airlines should not recruit due to age as it is needed to mix the levels up a bit.
However, comments like the above from rbaiapinto make me loose ALL sympathy and respect.
To suggest that all "young" pilots are out partying and the older ones wouldn't... I love the fact you think that airline lifestyle and shift work even allows for anyone to THINK about going out partying all the time.
To suggest young pilots are all immature and not responsible, wake up..
Oh and that young pilots are "impulsive on decision" ... we are flying a plane.. and we have all been trained to the same standard, but yes, of course, the fact you're older means you will handle ECAM much better than one of the young guys.
Want respect from others? think about what you are implying.
I feel sorry for the situation, but when someone shows such a lack of respect and frankly comes up with bull**** that is dangerous in the public eye, what else can be expected?
However, comments like the above from rbaiapinto make me loose ALL sympathy and respect.
To suggest that all "young" pilots are out partying and the older ones wouldn't... I love the fact you think that airline lifestyle and shift work even allows for anyone to THINK about going out partying all the time.
To suggest young pilots are all immature and not responsible, wake up..
Oh and that young pilots are "impulsive on decision" ... we are flying a plane.. and we have all been trained to the same standard, but yes, of course, the fact you're older means you will handle ECAM much better than one of the young guys.
Want respect from others? think about what you are implying.
I feel sorry for the situation, but when someone shows such a lack of respect and frankly comes up with bull**** that is dangerous in the public eye, what else can be expected?
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i_like_tea
I think it's not difficult to understand what I've written.
I made the question and replied comparing my actual age to when I was younger and outlining the advantages of being more mature.
The thing is that people should be selected for recruitment processes disregarding age. Which unfortunately doesn't happen. And then the selection process should reveal the better ones, whether they are 20 or 40 or whatever.
That's all I'm implying.
And I don't think I will have any issue handling ECAM, besides training with it, I'm an IT consultant, so all IT stuff it's not really a problem
(Please don't say that I'm implying that all older people are top notch with IT stuff
just joking 
)
I think it's not difficult to understand what I've written.
I made the question and replied comparing my actual age to when I was younger and outlining the advantages of being more mature.
The thing is that people should be selected for recruitment processes disregarding age. Which unfortunately doesn't happen. And then the selection process should reveal the better ones, whether they are 20 or 40 or whatever.
That's all I'm implying.
And I don't think I will have any issue handling ECAM, besides training with it, I'm an IT consultant, so all IT stuff it's not really a problem
(Please don't say that I'm implying that all older people are top notch with IT stuff
just joking )
Last edited by rbaiapinto; 11th Jul 2012 at 17:13.
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Originally Posted by plikee
TAP is recruiting yes, minimum 1000 TT. About the Portuguese, you have to write and talk fluently but you do not need to have any language proficiency in your licence.
Regarding age discrimination I agree - there shouldn't be any difference whether one is 20 or 45 with CPL/ME/IR applying for a jet job. But in reality, the learning curve of a 45-year old will be significantly flatter than that of a 20-year old - we can all agree on that. The more flat the learning curve, the longer the training lasts, the greater costs for the company. I do know that life experience is a very valuable thing to have on the flightdeck, but if it was really that important, legacy carriers wouldn't have cadet programs taking 18+ guys ab-initio, but they would be hiring 40 or 50-year old first officers who have a heap of life experience.
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Slightly off topic I'll admit, but does anyone with a decent accountant/knowledge of the accounting practice know whether you can follow the same trick of offsetting the entire cost of a TR against training for tax purposes, with money that may have been borrowed to finance some modular training?
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rbaiapinto - Fair enough, excuse me for feeling the need to defend my young(er) colleagues 
As I say, I don't agree with it how things are done and wish for the sake of fair opportunities (and for the future of the airline when the cadet bubble all hits command hours) that things were different.
Good luck and all the best.
As I say, I don't agree with it how things are done and wish for the sake of fair opportunities (and for the future of the airline when the cadet bubble all hits command hours) that things were different.
Good luck and all the best.