mikha169

Hey guys, i recently started watching a show called "Ice Pilots", it's basically a camera crew following a family run airline and their operations. What i found surprising was that a pilot with 250 hrs, 500 hrs, even 750hrs has to work for a couple of months even years as a "rampie" loading/unloading cargo, refueling, removing ice, all sorts of ground handling stuff that could be done by anyone before they even get a chance to get in the right seat. Now, i know its good to assess a person, how hard they work, motivation level etc... but this is just pure humiliation in my opinion. Working a year earning peanuts, doing back breaking work just to get a chance to fly a light twin or an ancient piston airplane....must be really hard for a new motivated pilot with a new commercial license in hand to find out he has to work for months, even years doing that

KAG

Hard work is not humiliating, man up a bit!

Nothing wrong with having some biceps before touching the yoke of a bush airplane.

You have no idea what went though real pilots, pionner of aviation 1 century ago. And they didn't feel humiliated!

The canadian system to train pilot is probabely the best in the world, better find something else to bash.

Spunky Monkey

Yeah...Dam right...

So the best pilots are the ones that pay for everything and end up in the right hand seat of a 737 with 256hours TT.
Eroding the T&Cs of the rest of us.

Are you a Troll or just a naive pnumpty with no life experience...keep watching the discovery channel for all of your facts...

Robert G Mugabe

Well little Lord Fauntleroy. Beggar the thought of actually having to work towards one's aims. Tell you what why dont you pay to fly a nice shiny jet.

Beware however ;old sport; most pilots in the left hand seats of said shiny jets went through the aviation school of hard knocks and developed what is called character.

"But Daddy I want it now" Veruca Salt

Mendel

The entitled generation...God help us....

rogerg

I spent many hours washing and polishing the boss's Kingair,sweeping the hangar floor etc etc to get the chance of of some right hand seat time. I dont remember feeling humiliated.

7AC

My oh my, somebody had to work for a living, not have it handed to him on a plate.
Those of us who came by the self improver route just regard it as the potholes on
the road to our goal.

ilesmark

'work for a couple of months even years as a "rampie" loading/unloading cargo, refueling, removing ice, all sorts of ground handling stuff'?

LUXURY! I used to DREAM of working as a rampie doing ground handling stuff. Would have been like a holiday camp to us

Locked door

OP, in a hostile environment with old equipment do you think a year on the ramp learning a gut feel for load and balance, de icing, de frosting aircraft and countless other nuggets of information that may one day save them and their colleagues, combined with time in the manuals, is time wasted?

They will finish that year with knowledge, respect for the aircraft and enviromnent, and a solid foundation to become excellent (bush) pilots.

If only the majority of the new generation of commercial pilots had such a start to their careers. The sky would be a safer place.

JW411

The OP gives his location as HECA. I seem to remember that is Cairo. He is also an A320 first officer. Probably not Buffalo material.

Locked door

A touch harsh i think, JW411. We are all shaped by our experiences, the key is to control those experiences for the better.

bvcu

And put into context the poor rh seat LO cost guys in europe , its an apprenticeship , because i am seeing a lot of those guys now in the RH seat of big shiny new widebodies with ME carriers , so for a lot of them its paid off in the end .

mikha169

Most of you guys are coming at me guns blazing, full of assumptions and no one is asking me to clarify anything....so i think i need to make myself clearer. I do in fact approve of the fact of doing all the hard work of loading/unloading cargo, refueling, deicing...etc but doing all that hard work for a year+ WITHOUT logging any time what so ever that's what i don't get. Fly for an hour and do all the ground handling for 5 hours, no problem...but busting your ass with nothing?!!! And for your info yes, i am based in HECA, yes i am an F/O on an A320 but nothing came for free..had to take loans, work multiple jobs, flight instruct to build hours...nothing in life comes for free, you have to work at it and i worked hard to get where i am today. Hope that clarifies my point of view. its the flying to work ratio that's unfair to say the least!

framer

"unfair to say the least"

That phrase sums up how many of the younger generation have been let down by the societies they've grown up in. We have failed to give them an accurate view of the world in that they honestly expect things to be "fair" , when the reality is very few things in life are fair. This sets them up for disappointment when they try to make their way in the world.
Just my opinion.

Serenity

I have and also know many others who have worked in operations, crewing, dispatch, cabin crew, all to get a foot in the door of an airline and the industry.
Happily I'm pleased to say that all the many people I knew working those jobs are now in paid flying jobs!! Many on boeing and airbus!!
Well done guys snd girls!!

Maybe we should all have done like MiKha an paid through the noses, loaned to the max to get a job straight onto an airbus!!
What we did still didn't come cheap, large loans for courses, low paid jobs and some very hard working hours!!
We all now have a larger appreciation for the industry and a sense of achievement in what we have done.
Next time Mikha you moan at crewing, ops or about the crew, take time to think that you have no idea of how to do their jobs.

I really do hope your initial post was a wind up, but unfortunately for you I think you were serious! Even more unfortunately for you is that you can't see what was wrong about it!!

KAG

Any PAID honest hard work is something to be proud of, even for a future pilot.

stator vane

We old dogs only did it because we had to and there was no other option.

If there had been the same options as now, I think I could rightfully be called stupid not to take full advantage of them.

So, I cannot throw any rocks at anyone simply because the entire industry has changed by the time they entered the fray. "children of the magenta" were spawned by their respective training departments. Do you honestly expect them to go against what their trainers and checkers who hold the ink pens tell them to do?

We would have been the same if the timing was different.

And both hands up, this reply did cover more than one thread subject.

cwatters

Just don't tell a certain Irish Airline that pilots know how to load baggage.

J.O.

Well this thread certainly touched a few nerves and justifiably so. As one who had to work their way up, putting in 16 years in the grass roots of the business before getting into my first big jet, I never once felt humiliated. I knew that I was gaining some very valuable experience in that time and appreciated all of it. By working with some excellent colleagues who felt that every day was another opportunity to train, I also learned that no "Buffalo Joes" were going to browbeat me into taking a mission that was unsafe or illegal. I wouldn't have made for very good TV, all thanks to them.

Once I achieved my first big jet command, that time I spent working my way up also gave me an appreciation for the work that the support staff were doing to help us get the mission under way. The only time I ever saw a grumpy captain getting on the case of some poor support staffer - who was just doing their best - was when that captain was someone who had never done such "grunt" work himself. He'd come up through the ranks quickly - due to nothing more than good luck and excellent timing - and the world revolved around him, or so he thought.

If the attitude of the OP - "supported" by PFT and MPL - is really the future of our industry, then heaven help us all. There may be more 37,000 ft plunges in our future ...

dwshimoda

Well, I'm lucky enough to have 2,500 hours in a shiny jet, and still building, but I would love to go and work for Buffalo. I feel that I lost out on my apprenticeship and experience by going straight to jets, hence I have started SEP flying again in a number of roles, and am looking to become an instructor.

I imagine Buffalo turns out some of the most rounded pilots with a complete knowledge of everything to do with their industry / company - something I am having to actively seek and gain.

We should all know about loading / ops / crewing / commercial / the list goes on.