Will it go back to the old times?
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Ok let me put it another way.
Do you blame the next generation of pilots just now for applying for Pay to Fly type schemes and Type rating/Line Training type schemes....Yes or no?
Do you think the current experienced pilot base and the unions have done anything to help stand up and prevent the so called rot? Or have they just sat blissfuly happy instead dreaming of drinking vino in retirement?
Do you blame the next generation of pilots just now for applying for Pay to Fly type schemes and Type rating/Line Training type schemes....Yes or no?
Do you think the current experienced pilot base and the unions have done anything to help stand up and prevent the so called rot? Or have they just sat blissfuly happy instead dreaming of drinking vino in retirement?
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Respectively:
Yes, they enable the worst aspects of economic endeavour, fundamentally against their own best interests;
Yes, they have made noise about it but as mere enablers/providers in an overstocked and highly pressurised market they are unable to influence outcome;
No, they are, every one of them, heartily peed off, both with the situation and their own lack of influence.
Pay to fly = Turkeys voting for Christmas
Yes, they enable the worst aspects of economic endeavour, fundamentally against their own best interests;
Yes, they have made noise about it but as mere enablers/providers in an overstocked and highly pressurised market they are unable to influence outcome;
No, they are, every one of them, heartily peed off, both with the situation and their own lack of influence.
Pay to fly = Turkeys voting for Christmas
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Mike, Mme Hamster is calling me to bed, but to conclude...
This is because (in a nutshell):
The pilots and unions don't run the airlines.
The managers do run the airlines and are only concerned with making value for shareholders whilst achieving compliance with regulation.
The regulator works down to compliance, not up to excellence, and without any test for what we might call professional reasonableness.
The fare-paying public don't know, and probably, after the spin-doctors had had their input, wouldn't care, what's going on.
Modern aviation is incredibly 'safe' even done to what I would see to be a shockingly low standard.
I don't want to labour the point, but This nightmare is only real because idiots will pay to do a job which professionals have been paid to do for years Just what the long-term consequences are, doesn't bear thinking about.
This is because (in a nutshell):
The pilots and unions don't run the airlines.
The managers do run the airlines and are only concerned with making value for shareholders whilst achieving compliance with regulation.
The regulator works down to compliance, not up to excellence, and without any test for what we might call professional reasonableness.
The fare-paying public don't know, and probably, after the spin-doctors had had their input, wouldn't care, what's going on.
Modern aviation is incredibly 'safe' even done to what I would see to be a shockingly low standard.
I don't want to labour the point, but This nightmare is only real because idiots will pay to do a job which professionals have been paid to do for years Just what the long-term consequences are, doesn't bear thinking about.
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Yeah as i said about 5 posts ago, I dont need an explanation on the economics of how it all works, a 12 year old can work out the driving forces behind it all. I do believe however you are wrong for blaming the so called 'idiots' as you refer to them as. They werent the ones who sat around watching it all unfold and did nothing. But alas we go full circle in this discussion....goodnight flh
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...and if I may ask:
In our capitalist society...
In your opinion, WHO should have done WHAT to prevent it, and WHY?
In our capitalist society...
In your opinion, WHO should have done WHAT to prevent it, and WHY?
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Goodnight Mike,
Perhaps tomorrow you'll answer my last question. I'm interested to see what you say.
Edit:
Ah, your last post crossed with mine. Years ago, feeling let down over pay negotiations, I voted myself a small rise by leaving the union. I left the operator shortly afterwards to fly bigger machines for more money.
Seriously, who should have done what, and why? And, perhaps more importantly, how would it have stopped this awful pay-to-fly horror?
Perhaps tomorrow you'll answer my last question. I'm interested to see what you say.
Edit:
Ah, your last post crossed with mine. Years ago, feeling let down over pay negotiations, I voted myself a small rise by leaving the union. I left the operator shortly afterwards to fly bigger machines for more money.
Seriously, who should have done what, and why? And, perhaps more importantly, how would it have stopped this awful pay-to-fly horror?
This seems to have got a bit of the subject raised by the OP.
Don't want to get into a personal discussion, but one of the protaganists stated that he/she was a member of two unions and was still waiting for the slightest hint from them about the so called cancer.
You are not a member of the union, you are the union. Have you suggested that the union form a group to look into the problem. Have you volunteered to give up some of your time for nothing, like your union reps do for you, in order to form that group. Have you lobbied the CAA or members of parliment or whatever you have in the country you live in. Either do that or don't moan that "no one has done anything", because you are the same as them. Sorry to have a go at you but I have been a (voluntary and unpaid) union rep in the past, and too many people thing all you have to do is pay your dues and things will be done for you...they won't.
To answer the OPs question I think the answer is no. I got into flying commercially in the "old times". I washed aeroplanes and cut grass and answered telephones in exchange for flying hours. I sold my motorbike to pay for an instructors rating, then instructed for six years, then flew single crew at home and abroad for another six before I was lucky enough to get into the right hand seat of a two crew aircraft and could finally afford to pay a mortgage. Since I started instructing in 1982 there have been a few blips, but probably no more than three years in total, when it has been "easy" to get a job, but it has always been a slog - the difference now is that everyone starts off thinking that they are fully qualified because they have a frozen "ATPL" rather than a CPL or BCPL, and they have had lots of spin from Oxford/Cabair/FTE/etc about being "airline pilots" rather than just "pilots".
Unfortunately, having seen how the industry works for 30 years I think it is safe to say that we will never go back to the good old days. There never were any good old days, just different ones.
Don't want to get into a personal discussion, but one of the protaganists stated that he/she was a member of two unions and was still waiting for the slightest hint from them about the so called cancer.
You are not a member of the union, you are the union. Have you suggested that the union form a group to look into the problem. Have you volunteered to give up some of your time for nothing, like your union reps do for you, in order to form that group. Have you lobbied the CAA or members of parliment or whatever you have in the country you live in. Either do that or don't moan that "no one has done anything", because you are the same as them. Sorry to have a go at you but I have been a (voluntary and unpaid) union rep in the past, and too many people thing all you have to do is pay your dues and things will be done for you...they won't.
To answer the OPs question I think the answer is no. I got into flying commercially in the "old times". I washed aeroplanes and cut grass and answered telephones in exchange for flying hours. I sold my motorbike to pay for an instructors rating, then instructed for six years, then flew single crew at home and abroad for another six before I was lucky enough to get into the right hand seat of a two crew aircraft and could finally afford to pay a mortgage. Since I started instructing in 1982 there have been a few blips, but probably no more than three years in total, when it has been "easy" to get a job, but it has always been a slog - the difference now is that everyone starts off thinking that they are fully qualified because they have a frozen "ATPL" rather than a CPL or BCPL, and they have had lots of spin from Oxford/Cabair/FTE/etc about being "airline pilots" rather than just "pilots".
Unfortunately, having seen how the industry works for 30 years I think it is safe to say that we will never go back to the good old days. There never were any good old days, just different ones.
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MIKECR
Answer this one simple question.
If wannabes weren't prepared to pay for these PTF, CTC, flexi, or whatever the hell you want to call them schemes, would they exist?
I agree with frontlefthamster.
Answer this one simple question.
If wannabes weren't prepared to pay for these PTF, CTC, flexi, or whatever the hell you want to call them schemes, would they exist?
I agree with frontlefthamster.
Trust me all airline pilots have watched the Pay To Fly tumour grow with increasing apprehension and concern. It all started with paying for your own MCC back in 1999 and way back then those on the flight decks just knew that this process would creep up and up to paid for type ratings, paid for base checks, paid for line training etc etc.
We did all know. We did all do nothing. Because there was nothing that could be done.
There is no legal right to strike in the UK. There certainly is no right to strike because somebody else is willing to apply for a job with another company on terms you don't like. Or your own company come to that. The contract terms between your employer and their next recruit are none of your legal business. Go on strike if you want but it will be illegal and you will be sacked and sued and lose your home. Which is why you've never heard such mumblings from BALPA or anyone else on the matter.
The real blame, and this is a view settled over decades of being involved with Wannabes, lies with people's willingness to spend a bit more than the other guy to give them the advantage. Very common human trait. Sometimes commendable and useful but in this instance harmful. House price inflation provided turbocharging to the engine and the rapid growth of LCC's with well mapped growth schedules provided the chassis.
The Wannabes themselves yanked open the drivers door and did the driving themselves.
Europe will have its Colgan Air. After which the regulator will probably follow the FAA and tighten up slightly on minimum pilot requirements. Even after that though the Wannabe financial arms race will not be over. Here's why:
Your Son is bright and doing well in school and expresses an interest in aviation sustained over a couple of years by his membership of ATC/Gliding Club/PPL et al. He's doing his A-Levels and so your are all thinking about University. He has no particular yearning to enter medicine or law or similar professions nor the military. Uni is going to cost 3 * £9k fees + 3 * 5k rent/living expenses. That's £42k for a likely 2:2 or 2:1 from some red brick somewhere that isn't OxBridge in something or other discipline.
Pilot training is going to cost double that but only take 18 months tops. Lets say Junior can work (and do a bit of travelling maybe) for 2 years after A-levels and live at home and earn £14k a year. It is possible with a bit of shift work and bar job, easily. Two years of that and he's matured a bit, learned how hard working at a boring job is, and had £28k towards the £42k you haven't sunk into Uni.
Suddenly the premium of a CPL/IR Frzn ATPL from CTC/OATS over a degree doesn't look very big. Enough Dad's will be persuaded by these sorts of figures to ensure that there will be queues around the block for £80k pilot training courses for years to come. Many recent graduates spend time unemployed and then time on unpaid internships and trainee schemes. For the CTC/OAT graduate this takes the form of pay by the hour flex cadet work experience/evaluation in the RHS of a B737/A320.
It ain't no different really.
Its not going to go back to how it used to be.
WWW
We did all know. We did all do nothing. Because there was nothing that could be done.
There is no legal right to strike in the UK. There certainly is no right to strike because somebody else is willing to apply for a job with another company on terms you don't like. Or your own company come to that. The contract terms between your employer and their next recruit are none of your legal business. Go on strike if you want but it will be illegal and you will be sacked and sued and lose your home. Which is why you've never heard such mumblings from BALPA or anyone else on the matter.
The real blame, and this is a view settled over decades of being involved with Wannabes, lies with people's willingness to spend a bit more than the other guy to give them the advantage. Very common human trait. Sometimes commendable and useful but in this instance harmful. House price inflation provided turbocharging to the engine and the rapid growth of LCC's with well mapped growth schedules provided the chassis.
The Wannabes themselves yanked open the drivers door and did the driving themselves.
Europe will have its Colgan Air. After which the regulator will probably follow the FAA and tighten up slightly on minimum pilot requirements. Even after that though the Wannabe financial arms race will not be over. Here's why:
Your Son is bright and doing well in school and expresses an interest in aviation sustained over a couple of years by his membership of ATC/Gliding Club/PPL et al. He's doing his A-Levels and so your are all thinking about University. He has no particular yearning to enter medicine or law or similar professions nor the military. Uni is going to cost 3 * £9k fees + 3 * 5k rent/living expenses. That's £42k for a likely 2:2 or 2:1 from some red brick somewhere that isn't OxBridge in something or other discipline.
Pilot training is going to cost double that but only take 18 months tops. Lets say Junior can work (and do a bit of travelling maybe) for 2 years after A-levels and live at home and earn £14k a year. It is possible with a bit of shift work and bar job, easily. Two years of that and he's matured a bit, learned how hard working at a boring job is, and had £28k towards the £42k you haven't sunk into Uni.
Suddenly the premium of a CPL/IR Frzn ATPL from CTC/OATS over a degree doesn't look very big. Enough Dad's will be persuaded by these sorts of figures to ensure that there will be queues around the block for £80k pilot training courses for years to come. Many recent graduates spend time unemployed and then time on unpaid internships and trainee schemes. For the CTC/OAT graduate this takes the form of pay by the hour flex cadet work experience/evaluation in the RHS of a B737/A320.
It ain't no different really.
Its not going to go back to how it used to be.
WWW
Have to agree with WWW, hamster, et. al.
Maybe BALPA could have could have made more noise about P2F, but IMHO the average paying customer wouldn't give a stuff, they just want the cheapest ticket..still do.
As for Industrial Action by BALPA members over the issue - how? UK Labour Laws, much reformed by Meryl Streep
and subsequent governments have contains stringent criteria as to what constitutes Official Industrial Action (IA) and draconiac penalties for those who indulge in Unofficial IA. If you work for company A you can't go on strike over company B entering into a commericial arrangement with an individual.....
Maybe BALPA could have could have made more noise about P2F, but IMHO the average paying customer wouldn't give a stuff, they just want the cheapest ticket..still do.
As for Industrial Action by BALPA members over the issue - how? UK Labour Laws, much reformed by Meryl Streep
and subsequent governments have contains stringent criteria as to what constitutes Official Industrial Action (IA) and draconiac penalties for those who indulge in Unofficial IA. If you work for company A you can't go on strike over company B entering into a commericial arrangement with an individual.....
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The good old times?
He's training to become an airline pilot...
From airline sponsored training, a full time contract and final salary pension.
Nowadays risking absolutely everything for the chance of achieving a flexi-crew/pay by the hour seasonal contract with zero pension is the considered route.
Calling Dr Emmett Brown and his Delorean
From airline sponsored training, a full time contract and final salary pension.
Nowadays risking absolutely everything for the chance of achieving a flexi-crew/pay by the hour seasonal contract with zero pension is the considered route.
Calling Dr Emmett Brown and his Delorean
Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 2nd Mar 2012 at 15:56.
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I have to disagree with WWW on this one.
Senior pilots are mostly to blame for the situation we find ourselves in at the moment. By senior I mean the senior captains and training captains that allowed the situation to develop and the rampant rate at which this decay has spread.
It only would have taken a few meetings with one another (over a cold one) to discuss the problem and seek to resolve the issue from within. But no, let’s sit on our butts with our senior salaries, moan about it and blame the wannabe pilot.
Senior pilots could have done something to put a spanner in the CTC machine and other past PTF schemes a long time ago. Time to look into the mirror before you point any fingers I'm afraid. You guys shouldn’t be casting stones whilst living in glass houses!!
Senior pilots are mostly to blame for the situation we find ourselves in at the moment. By senior I mean the senior captains and training captains that allowed the situation to develop and the rampant rate at which this decay has spread.
It only would have taken a few meetings with one another (over a cold one) to discuss the problem and seek to resolve the issue from within. But no, let’s sit on our butts with our senior salaries, moan about it and blame the wannabe pilot.
Senior pilots could have done something to put a spanner in the CTC machine and other past PTF schemes a long time ago. Time to look into the mirror before you point any fingers I'm afraid. You guys shouldn’t be casting stones whilst living in glass houses!!