Pay to Fly (Merged Feb '12)
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fight against P2F
Hi All,
I can't find again the thread about P2F discussion, so I'll write here. I'm experienced pilot flying for one european airline right now, but I've been partly involved in P2F program a time ago. I didin't go thru this P2F scheme, but I've quite valuable informations about all P2F things, about what they will offer you and how many violations are made against the training contract. If there is someone who wants to support this battle against P2F program (provided by EJ), give me know. I don't want to do all as a single person involved. There are several things, like immigration and work permit regulations beeing violated, safety, exceeding duty time limit for JAA license holders and many other things. According the contract you will receive from EJ, you have to follow all instructions from the airline, otherwise your program will be terminated and you loose all your money. This has already happend and makes me the feeling, that the EJ and partmer airline can make easily good profit just by pushing the trainee pilot to the limits, which he doesn't want to exceed. Once you refuse the request, you go home. This case I've well supported by many proofs, but I don't want to write all to the public forum at this time.
I can't find again the thread about P2F discussion, so I'll write here. I'm experienced pilot flying for one european airline right now, but I've been partly involved in P2F program a time ago. I didin't go thru this P2F scheme, but I've quite valuable informations about all P2F things, about what they will offer you and how many violations are made against the training contract. If there is someone who wants to support this battle against P2F program (provided by EJ), give me know. I don't want to do all as a single person involved. There are several things, like immigration and work permit regulations beeing violated, safety, exceeding duty time limit for JAA license holders and many other things. According the contract you will receive from EJ, you have to follow all instructions from the airline, otherwise your program will be terminated and you loose all your money. This has already happend and makes me the feeling, that the EJ and partmer airline can make easily good profit just by pushing the trainee pilot to the limits, which he doesn't want to exceed. Once you refuse the request, you go home. This case I've well supported by many proofs, but I don't want to write all to the public forum at this time.
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Surely this is something for the UK CAA to look at? And they will afford you the anonymity. Good on you for coming forward. BALPA and most pilots in positions of power at EZY have sold themselves out a long time ago. This single disease will be responsible for the demise of this career yet on the campaigns page of BALPA not a single sign of them doing anything about "P2F". Not one.
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I have a couple of thoughts for you, and I clarify that I was never part of any P2F scheme.
If people could pay to start acting in hollywood would they do it? YES
If they could pay to be in the national soccer team? YES
If they could pay to start off as models? YES
etc etc
why all of the above doesn't happen? (at least not in the same way as we intend it). Because most of the businesses are regulated and need quality in the people who are part of them.
Until there is a LAW that forbids asking money any further than for a CPL nothing will change. We have all been desperate for a job/uninformed/not part of the business.
Again, this will never happen because MONEY is what count, and the companies wont allow it. Free market as we have been used to since 1950 doesn t work, it s been proven by this last crisis and by the status of all the poor countries in the world. The problem is at the roots.
If people could pay to start acting in hollywood would they do it? YES
If they could pay to be in the national soccer team? YES
If they could pay to start off as models? YES
etc etc
why all of the above doesn't happen? (at least not in the same way as we intend it). Because most of the businesses are regulated and need quality in the people who are part of them.
Until there is a LAW that forbids asking money any further than for a CPL nothing will change. We have all been desperate for a job/uninformed/not part of the business.
Again, this will never happen because MONEY is what count, and the companies wont allow it. Free market as we have been used to since 1950 doesn t work, it s been proven by this last crisis and by the status of all the poor countries in the world. The problem is at the roots.
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Hi, just a few points.
EZY did some pay to fly(for line training) last year through a third party but have stopped this because of concerns by trainers( some of those paying were not up to the ctc cadet standard) so there is no point fighting easy on this matter.
There may be stretching of the rostering agreement but I have not heard of actual FTL violations.
All bases are in EU so why would work permits be required unless you are from outside?
There are issues with French employment rules which have been discussed elsewhere.
We used to recruit mostly experienced f/o s with a few selected low hours cadets, now it is all cadets as they are cheaper, there is much that should be improved in their terms but it is not a pay to fly scheme.
EZY did some pay to fly(for line training) last year through a third party but have stopped this because of concerns by trainers( some of those paying were not up to the ctc cadet standard) so there is no point fighting easy on this matter.
There may be stretching of the rostering agreement but I have not heard of actual FTL violations.
All bases are in EU so why would work permits be required unless you are from outside?
There are issues with French employment rules which have been discussed elsewhere.
We used to recruit mostly experienced f/o s with a few selected low hours cadets, now it is all cadets as they are cheaper, there is much that should be improved in their terms but it is not a pay to fly scheme.
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Mrx11 - your information is completely wrong if you are referring to easyJet. Do you mean easyJet or Eagle Jet? EasyJet had a brief and very unsuccessful dabble in p2f a few years ago but have not operated a genuine p2f scheme for a long time. Your issues with any scheme easyJet operates are simply incorrect. If you are referring to Eagle Jet then please edit your post to remove any doubt as to which airline you are criticising, as everyone reading this thread thinks you are talking about easyJet.
I do not like the contractural aspects of the flexicrew system any more than anyone else, but it is NOT a p2f scheme. I would strongly suggest you research some long-running threads that cover this issue more fully. Then you can at least gain some understanding of the different entry-level schemes in order to make a valid contribution to what is an important debate.
I do not like the contractural aspects of the flexicrew system any more than anyone else, but it is NOT a p2f scheme. I would strongly suggest you research some long-running threads that cover this issue more fully. Then you can at least gain some understanding of the different entry-level schemes in order to make a valid contribution to what is an important debate.
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A perfectly valid question hollingworthp. The answer is no as the OAA guys do get paid. They are embraced under the CTC Flexi-crew system and are on the same deal as the CTC cadets. That means they pay for the type-rating and are then paid as contractors thereafter. They are also likely to be offered jobs in the future with easyJet. It is not perfect but it is absolutely not a p2f scheme. The big unknown is how many of our current contract FOs are going to be offered permanent contracts this October and how the selection will be done. That will reveal the true colours of the new regime.
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The answer is no as the OAA guys do get paid. They are embraced under the CTC Flexi-crew system and are on the same deal as the CTC cadets. That means they pay for the type-rating and are then paid as contractors thereafter.
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Spot on Mr Wayne. OAA charge 34k for the privilege. Now that's way more than the price of a TR. So what the's remaining 14k or so for?
NSF is right in saying that the DO get paid by the hour for the duration of the contract. And some will see that contract turn into a permanent one. But the way I see it it's still 14k to fly...
P
NSF is right in saying that the DO get paid by the hour for the duration of the contract. And some will see that contract turn into a permanent one. But the way I see it it's still 14k to fly...
P
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What is included in the training package NSF? Is it ground school, sim, and skills test only or does it include line training, so at what point do the 'customers' cease to be 'customers' and become contractors?
mrx111. You could contact the IPA as they are lobbying against pay to fly schemes.
mrx111. You could contact the IPA as they are lobbying against pay to fly schemes.
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Firestorm - I am reluctant to get too involved here as this is hijacking a legitimate debate about the failings of Eagle Jet and their unprofessional operation.
In answer to your question, a candidate from OAA is sent to easyJet for screening. If successful they pay £34k for the privilege of a type-rating which is done through CAE at Burgess Hill. They get ground school, simulator, Skills Test and airborne base training. They are then the proud owners of a JAA Frozen ATPL with an A320 type-rating. At the end of that they enter the easyJet system for Line Training as any new pilot would with company induction, SEP, Line Training ground school etc. They get paid a flat-rate £1200 for the first few months and after that get paid only when they work by the block hour. Others will give the exact rates but off the top of my head I think it is £43/block hour and £250/day for a standby. There is also an amount taken off to pay back the type-rating costs which I think is £20/block hour. It is clearly not ideal, but the experience of most people so far is that the work has flowed in. The key problem with it is there is no security and it may be helpful for others to publish the key parts of the contract so I do not mislead anyone. Nonetheless, this is clearly not a p2f scheme, despite some very unsavoury aspects to the deal.
As a little aside, an announcement was made this morning that easyJet Swiss have just taken on permanently (on a very good deal) 8 of the flexicrew cadets. Also, we have sent out permanent offers of employment to 37 flexicrew pilots starting 1st Nov. Finally we have announced our intention to offer an unspecified number of permanent contracts in France and Italy on 1st Jan 2011. Every one of those job offers will be from flexicrew pilots. As can be seen, permanent job offers have therefore appeared from this tempororay contract system and the nay-sayers have been proven completely wrong.
There are, however, some apsects to this deal that are, in my judgement, flawed and worth highlighting. Much of the flexicrew system has been designed to keep BALPA away from any contract negotiations and the contracts have not been offered in seniority order. We took on recently through Parc Aviation a number of ex-BMI pilots who were made redundant at BMI. By applying a random experience level which was completely unnecessary we ensured that most of these guys were offered permanent positions prior to our own cadets who joined easyJet before them. In addition, we have decided to hold 'selection' days in order to decide who gets the permanent jobs. This is completely unnecessary as these jobs will go to those who have been flying the line for years in some cases. If they are good enough to fly the line they are good enough to have jobs - it is has to be strict seniority order in order to ensure management 'favourites' are not given extra advancement, and people whose faces do not fit are left out. I have no problem with a clear and just system where under-performing or socially-challenged individuals are not offered permanent jobs. What I do want is an open system without shady deals being done on behalf of 'good blokes' at the expense of their less visible but very competent colleagues. If ever you wanted a reason why responsible union negotiation is so important, just watch what is happening here. As soon as restraints are removed from management then injustice always arises as personal preference takes over from fairness. We need to be all over this like a rash to ensure that the jobs are offered fairly and in the order in which pilots joined the company.
In answer to your question, a candidate from OAA is sent to easyJet for screening. If successful they pay £34k for the privilege of a type-rating which is done through CAE at Burgess Hill. They get ground school, simulator, Skills Test and airborne base training. They are then the proud owners of a JAA Frozen ATPL with an A320 type-rating. At the end of that they enter the easyJet system for Line Training as any new pilot would with company induction, SEP, Line Training ground school etc. They get paid a flat-rate £1200 for the first few months and after that get paid only when they work by the block hour. Others will give the exact rates but off the top of my head I think it is £43/block hour and £250/day for a standby. There is also an amount taken off to pay back the type-rating costs which I think is £20/block hour. It is clearly not ideal, but the experience of most people so far is that the work has flowed in. The key problem with it is there is no security and it may be helpful for others to publish the key parts of the contract so I do not mislead anyone. Nonetheless, this is clearly not a p2f scheme, despite some very unsavoury aspects to the deal.
As a little aside, an announcement was made this morning that easyJet Swiss have just taken on permanently (on a very good deal) 8 of the flexicrew cadets. Also, we have sent out permanent offers of employment to 37 flexicrew pilots starting 1st Nov. Finally we have announced our intention to offer an unspecified number of permanent contracts in France and Italy on 1st Jan 2011. Every one of those job offers will be from flexicrew pilots. As can be seen, permanent job offers have therefore appeared from this tempororay contract system and the nay-sayers have been proven completely wrong.
There are, however, some apsects to this deal that are, in my judgement, flawed and worth highlighting. Much of the flexicrew system has been designed to keep BALPA away from any contract negotiations and the contracts have not been offered in seniority order. We took on recently through Parc Aviation a number of ex-BMI pilots who were made redundant at BMI. By applying a random experience level which was completely unnecessary we ensured that most of these guys were offered permanent positions prior to our own cadets who joined easyJet before them. In addition, we have decided to hold 'selection' days in order to decide who gets the permanent jobs. This is completely unnecessary as these jobs will go to those who have been flying the line for years in some cases. If they are good enough to fly the line they are good enough to have jobs - it is has to be strict seniority order in order to ensure management 'favourites' are not given extra advancement, and people whose faces do not fit are left out. I have no problem with a clear and just system where under-performing or socially-challenged individuals are not offered permanent jobs. What I do want is an open system without shady deals being done on behalf of 'good blokes' at the expense of their less visible but very competent colleagues. If ever you wanted a reason why responsible union negotiation is so important, just watch what is happening here. As soon as restraints are removed from management then injustice always arises as personal preference takes over from fairness. We need to be all over this like a rash to ensure that the jobs are offered fairly and in the order in which pilots joined the company.
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NSF - Whilst not wanting to seem churlish, or pedantic, tha'ts not quite true though, is it.
I KNOW that the offer to the OAA guys/gals included 75 hours of line training that they are expected to fund. Now it is conceivable that EJ in their wisdom decided to remove that requirement from the deal, but then wouldn't you expect the cost to come right down, from the initially advertised £35k - which had included a large wadge of cash for the Line training?
Either way, I would agree the deal is not P2F - it's a kind of P2F hybrid, but it's certainly misleading to claim it's totally not P2F.
I KNOW that the offer to the OAA guys/gals included 75 hours of line training that they are expected to fund. Now it is conceivable that EJ in their wisdom decided to remove that requirement from the deal, but then wouldn't you expect the cost to come right down, from the initially advertised £35k - which had included a large wadge of cash for the Line training?
Either way, I would agree the deal is not P2F - it's a kind of P2F hybrid, but it's certainly misleading to claim it's totally not P2F.
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"There is also an amount taken off to pay back the type-rating costs which I think is £20/block hour"
I am at a loss to work out why they would be required to pay back costs for a TR they have had the priveledge of paying 34K for? Is that not already more than enough? It may not be P2F, but it ain't that far off....
I am at a loss to work out why they would be required to pay back costs for a TR they have had the priveledge of paying 34K for? Is that not already more than enough? It may not be P2F, but it ain't that far off....
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NSF, can explain, and use all the elequant wording he want`s. The 34k is for the typerating, and the line training, the peanuts paid during line training is just for show. After line training is complete, there might, or might not be a job offer. It dressed up, but still P2F.
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Pay for your job/training
In 1991 when I left university I applied to BA and the RAF as a pilot. I did the selections and was told that I had reached the required standard but no pilot positions were available due to cutbacks in recruitment in BA and personnel reductions in the RAF (I turned down the subsequent offer of Engineering Officer). Had I been taken on, there would have been a net payment to me from day 1 of my employment.
I became an civilian engineer and flew for a hobby in gliders and light aircraft. Eventually I saved enough money to pay for a CPL/IR and got that. Then the JAR regulations were brought in and I needed an MCC so I did that. Nobody would offer me a flying job due to lack of experience so I did an instructor rating. The total outlay for me was approximately £50k. I won't include loss of earnings because that will distort the issue.
After two years of training and four years of various employment as an instructor, aerial survey, and air taxi pilot I reached the break-even point in my flying career (not including subsistence expenses).
For illustration, compare that to the approximate costs of the current Easyjet ab initio pilot.
£80k for an integrated course.
£34k for the cadet scheme.
I suppose the break even point will come sooner for these cadets than me, but probably at greater risk because there is no guarantee of selection to be a cadet or indeed employment at the end.
There was a step change around 1990 when the airlines realised that they could save themselves the cost of training because of hobby pilots like me, and cadet pilots of schemes like Easyjet's.
That doesn't make it right, but we live in a capitalist society which deems this fair. Those who are lucky enough to be able to find the funding up front get the job (provided they can meet the minimum standard which on the evidence of the accident statistics appears to be high enough).
The current situation (and for the last 20 years) is that there are enough people with enough money and desire and minimum ability to pay for their own training to be a pilot. This is the political and commercial reality we live in. Unless the supply of pilots willing to pay for their training dries up this situation will continue. I expect that airlines will try to find some way of increasing the contribution of the prospective employee until that threshold is finally reached. We are not at that point yet.
You may feel this is not right or fair, but consider the alternatives. A meritocracy would provide the alternative route where everyone gets a chance based on ability. A socialist society would give everyone with the desire the chance to be a pilot based on reaching a minimum ability (followed by random selection). Neither of these political systems are in place in any democratic society today. Winston Churchill said: “Democracy is the worst type of government, except all those others that have been tried.” I suppose we are stuck with it for now.
I became an civilian engineer and flew for a hobby in gliders and light aircraft. Eventually I saved enough money to pay for a CPL/IR and got that. Then the JAR regulations were brought in and I needed an MCC so I did that. Nobody would offer me a flying job due to lack of experience so I did an instructor rating. The total outlay for me was approximately £50k. I won't include loss of earnings because that will distort the issue.
After two years of training and four years of various employment as an instructor, aerial survey, and air taxi pilot I reached the break-even point in my flying career (not including subsistence expenses).
For illustration, compare that to the approximate costs of the current Easyjet ab initio pilot.
£80k for an integrated course.
£34k for the cadet scheme.
I suppose the break even point will come sooner for these cadets than me, but probably at greater risk because there is no guarantee of selection to be a cadet or indeed employment at the end.
There was a step change around 1990 when the airlines realised that they could save themselves the cost of training because of hobby pilots like me, and cadet pilots of schemes like Easyjet's.
That doesn't make it right, but we live in a capitalist society which deems this fair. Those who are lucky enough to be able to find the funding up front get the job (provided they can meet the minimum standard which on the evidence of the accident statistics appears to be high enough).
The current situation (and for the last 20 years) is that there are enough people with enough money and desire and minimum ability to pay for their own training to be a pilot. This is the political and commercial reality we live in. Unless the supply of pilots willing to pay for their training dries up this situation will continue. I expect that airlines will try to find some way of increasing the contribution of the prospective employee until that threshold is finally reached. We are not at that point yet.
You may feel this is not right or fair, but consider the alternatives. A meritocracy would provide the alternative route where everyone gets a chance based on ability. A socialist society would give everyone with the desire the chance to be a pilot based on reaching a minimum ability (followed by random selection). Neither of these political systems are in place in any democratic society today. Winston Churchill said: “Democracy is the worst type of government, except all those others that have been tried.” I suppose we are stuck with it for now.