Interviews, jobs & sponsorshipDo ya feel lucky, Punk? Well do ya? If so, here's the place to swap the hot gen on who's sponsoring or employing, their selection criteria, and where those oh so elusive first jobs can be spotted in the wild. Watch out for the tumbleweeds...
I finished all my initial flight training in October 2010, having applied to every airline that I can possibly think of, I still sit here without a flying job,
itís driving me mad.
I was lucky enough to have an interview with Ryanair in January, I put alot of time, money and effort into this interview, (in fact I put everything into this interview) on the day I walked out the assessment centre feeling confident that I might have just clinched my first flying job,
The technical interview went very well, and so did the sim (well thatís my opinion).
Four days later I got the dreaded email saying I have been unsuccessful, this had knocked my confidence for six,
what did I do wrong?
Ryanair would have been the perfect start for me,I would have worked so hard for them,
Itís hard because my flying buddies are getting into Ryanair by the day, its getting to the point Iím feeling sick about it, what did I do that was so wrong, (Iím starting to sound like a big baby now)
So what now?
Maybe you guys can help me out? As the days, weeks,months go by, I can see myself getting more and more rusty by the day, my knowledge is deteriorating, my flying skills must be suffering.
(how can I keep on top of the ATPL knowledge-any tips)
I have worked far too hard just to give up on my dream, if I do Iíll be letting myself friends and family down,
I have came to the conclusion that I am going to have to pay for a type rating, donít get me wrong I donít have the money for this, Iím going to have to beg the bank manager,
Do you think this will be a good idea? I see it as an investment for my future career,
Another route I could take is an instructor rating, I have thought long and hard about this. I think I would make a good instructor, but if I put my hand on my heart, my aim has always been commercial flying,
I know there are thousands of people that are in my situation and I feel for every single person,
It just seems whatever I do, Someone erects a big double blocked brick wall in front of me.
Please feel free to share your experiences and any feedback will be much appreciated and will be taken on board,
Why would you even want to work for ryanair ? You should be happy you are not working for them Do you actually understand how that airline work's and treat's it's staff? Its a scam in my opinion!
I have a few freind's that work for FR, all lovely guys, but hate the flying, SOP's and there work contract's.
Anyways, man up and get a job as ground crew or a flight ops assistant, prove to that airline and the management pilots (who you will bump into on a daily basis) that you are the right stuff. People who just send CV's off are not the kind of pilots I would want to share a cockpit with. Get a job in the airline where you will bump into management, pilots on a daily basis, even if its the office cleaner for 6 months! You need contacts.
For your own sake, dont pay for a type rating. Just get your foot in the door somehow of any airline or charter AOC holder company.
Apply for a crew to airside DHL mini bus drivers job for example, mate just chin up and you will get a job but you neeed to start at the bottom. I personnaly would not recruit a low hours pilot on an aircraft of the 737 weight category. You need a few years on old turboprops, that will put hairs on your chest or some single pilot IFR work.
Of course, failing the above you can just pay for a job and end up 5 years down the line with an emergency and no hand flying skills what so ever!
Unless you were on an integrated cadet scheme with an affiliated flight training provider, I think you may be setting your sights a little unrealistically.
Most airlines require applicants to have ATPL level basic experience (1500 hours) and around 500 hours of turbine experience as a minimum. There is nothing new in this, they always have done.
For cadets with less than this minimum level of experience, recruitment is normally in conjunction with one of the main training providers (Oxford, CTC or FTE.)
Most of the major airlines are type rating training organisations (TRTO's) and will provide type rating training where necessary to those suitably qualified and experienced applicants. Paying for a type rating isn't going to improve your chances much unless you also have commensurate levels of relevant experience to go with it.
Type rating a suitable applicant from scratch takes around 6 to 8 weeks. The applicant may (depending on the airline) be contracted to those training costs (bonded,) or may be required to pay those costs in advance. In any event, the airline can appraise and monitor the candidates progress.
Obviously somebody with 250 hours and a type rating they have paid for themselves, as part of collection of self acquired and unmonitored courses, isn't likely to excite the interest of many companies. There are no shortage of companies selling this type of stuff, and similarly there are companies happy to charge you to attend an interview. However for most people with 250 hours and a CPL/IR, I am afraid airline employment is not a likely proposition in the near term.
It isn't a break you need, it is a better and more realistic game plan. Having said that, it still isn't going to be easy. An instructor rating might well enable you to obtain employment that would if you were successful, keep your flying skills from becoming rusty. It also enables the logbook hours to keep clocking up. In adddition it would hopefully provide you with new teaching (and learning) skills, that would be of benefit in the future.
Somebody in this position would be at a significant advantage to somebody not flying at all. Both could still send out CV's to all and sundry, but the instructor would actually be working towards to the end goal.
Why dont you go see the world. Get out of mommy and daddies house and go off to africa or anywhere outside your cocoon for a month or 2 and meet some people, get some life experience and get a job there. Your long term dream and goal is to be an airline pilot...that doesnt mean you have to have it tomorrow. You need patience my friend, good things come to those who wait and do it the honourable way! This necessity for instant gratification and thinking that young low time pilots deserve a seat in an a320/737 is staggering! Just remember that for every older airline pilot you screw over to get that beloved seat in the airlines, there will be 200 behind you ready to do the same to you....until we change the culture. You can start the trend and take it the honourable way or you can be the problem and facing off with the new guys like you for a position in 2yr, 5yrs, 10yrs whatever, but remeber, it is inevitable!
Thank you for your replys, all constructive feedback!
Maverick I'm not complaining in the slightest, I just want some feedback from the guys that have many years of experience in the industry,
I have (like many others) paid a lot of money for my training and I don't want to get rusty and become idol, I am ambitious and I want to explore my options, do everything I can to try and secure my first flying job, Peoples advice from this forum will help me achieve my goal,
There has been some wise words said on this thread. Expect a few more knock backs along the way, and just when you think nothing will happen, one will come. They are like London buses, nothing for ages then 3 at once.
DO NOT pay for a type rating unless you have got a written signed job offer. My advice would be to get an instructor rating. ( it's what I did)
In the current climate there are not too many instructor jobs about, but you will find something. This will help get you experience and contacts. It will also teach you to be a better pilot, and looks good on your CV. It should keep you in the hours requirements that some companies want.
Instructor pay is not the best, and it can be difficult to even live off, let alone pay back any loans you may have. So to supplement your income try and get a job at an airline, handling agent etc. It will give you a foot through the door. My airline has just took on as cadet pilots several people from ops/crewing etc.
The offers will come eventually, my first job offer was on a 737 and one requirement was to have more than 1000 hours. You need to have an instructing (or something similar) job to get those sort of hours.
Even when your in the airlines your knock backs will still come. My first airline went bump the week before Christmas.
Making contacts will help, I knew no one in aviation when I started. Now I know people all over the world in many many airlines.
It can happen. Ten years ago, there was a young Flight Despatcher working for our all jet airline. He had acquired his CPL and was as keen as mustard. I took him for an informal assessment in a C 172, as part of which he flew two immaculate instrument approaches in a very busy ATC environment.
I wrote a report and sent it to our Chief Pilot, who of course knew him. The Chief Pilot said that he was impressed, but he needed more hours, so our lad resigned his job and went to Guam to fly Cherokees around the islands. Two years later he was back in our company, on his way to the RHS of an A320. And he wears glasses!
Location: More than a tank of fuel away from home.
And he wears glasses!
Huh? Nothing wrong with wearing glasses!
Flying Instructor would be my advice. You'll have great fun, learn some good basics about training, (you'll get paid like a monkey but you'll have to shrug that one off!) and best of all it will set you up one day when you get the chance at a training position within an airline (that day WILL come....)
Air Taxi, Glider Towing, Parachute dropping. All good ways of getting a few 'free' hours in your logbook.
Other than that, anything aviation related would help. Ramp/Baggage/Ops/Crewing, whatever. Just make sure you have something relevant to talk about in that airline interview.
Unfortunately in this game it is an expensive learning curve, and one which you may never recover from. One thing I will say is please, please, please do not listen to advice that tells you "if you want it bad enough you'll get there". This is complete b0llox. There's alot of good advice above, good luck in your quest.
Last edited by Coffin Corner; 23rd Apr 2011 at 20:58.
Try looking at any flying job that it is going to get those all important hours. When I qualified there were airline jobs and I got lucky; but if I had no luck in the airlines I would have looked further and further afield until I found something.
Why the hell did you start your training 6 months into the worst recession in living memory? This part I just do not understand. When will wannabes ever learn?
Not too sure about that. Had he started his training in 2007 when the industry was booming, his situation wouldn't have been better being on the market mid 2008. I think the timing is OK. You already got an interview. The job market will remain difficult anyway. It's good you share your concerns here, as it may help some individuals in their decision making process. Getting an airline job right after flight school shouldn't be your initial plan. You should set your training, you financial situation, your expectations for this time frame and goals:
-1 years after finishing flight school you should land an instructor job position,
-4 years after finishing flight school you should land a non-instructor pilot job
-8 years after finishing flight school you should see yourself in a nice turboprop like the Q400.
-12 years after finishing flight school you should land a turbofan job position (oil production/price permitting).
In our economic and pilot job market, this is the time frame you should have in mind, anything coming sooner would be a bonus. And as somebody already said in this thread, it's valuable and rewarding to build your skills and experience step by step.