Interviews, jobs & sponsorshipDo ya feel lucky, Punk? Well do ya? If so, here's the place to swap the hot gen on who's sponsoring or employing, their selection criteria, and where those oh so elusive first jobs can be spotted in the wild. Watch out for the tumbleweeds...
No one forced me nor asked me to follow this career path, I decided. Like wise with all others. I qualified at the end of 2000 with a frozen ATPL. I have had some interviews and flight test but, unfortunately no job offer. Further to this be cautious about what the airlines say to you as I have been given some real hope only to have it dashed on three occations. I have been told at the end of an unterview that I am their ideal candidate, only to receive a so sorry letter. I have passed an interview and had a flight Test on a 737 and been told by the pilot that there was no reason for anyone to have any concerns about my ability, a week later sorry you failed the flight test! I have been told that I have a job on survey work I just need to have a short check out, this never came.
HOWEVER I AM NOT BITTER I have loved all my flying and yes I do also have a FI rating this I did part time and I would recommend this to everyone. Consider this part time weekends only if I was to pay for the flying hours it would have cost me over £ 30,000 each year.
I am fortunate that I have a good job and so does my wife. I am 42 yrs and now will not be looking to become an airline pilot as I have been told I am too old. I would have flown anything for anyone I was not thinking just big jets, I would have loved to fly short sectors in a turboprop.
Do not be angry with the industry this is the way of the world in all walks of life it is who you know.
I still can't stop running to a window to look at any aircraft flying past they are great arn't they.
well said boys!could not have pointed it out better!
VITO:If you think you are unlucky please take a second to think about all those guys who finished just before 9/11 or shortly after(including me).They have been jobhunting for a long time (6years by now!!!) and if they would have taken the money to keep "current" renewing their Lic.they could have got a TR for it.If that would have made up for a job,only god knows!
Tell you a story about my last few years: I am german ,38,got initially UK FATPL ME IR MCC,convertet to JAR Lic.in March 2003 and FI rating since March 2006.
When I applied in UK they came back to me many times and said:sorry mate,correct Lic but wrong nationality!
When I applied in Germany they said:sorry mate,correct nationality but wrong (and now it goes very sad!!!) ,JAR Lic!!!! How the f....(please forgive me!) can you have the wrong JAR Lic!!!!!!!
(protecting the market)
But ,tell you what: I will never give up cuz I love it.
Get yourself an FI rating(if thats not too low for you!)and I garantie you a job next day!! PROMISE!!
I am working at a flight school instructing and in OPS (and cleaning cups)
Let you go but remember:never give up!
greets Andi
Ps:it is not my intention to pick on you,just trying to point out a few thing if you feel bad again.
Wish you all the luck,honestly!
I think I'm going to bite the bullet and do an FI rating. I qualified a year ago and I have had so many maybe's and broken promises from airlines and it's really got me down. The biggest reason for this is the debts I now have from training. I've got more going out every month than I've got coming in and my bank balance just keeps plummeting further into the red. I wish I had ANY flying job which would pay me enough each month so I can at least start putting something aside for my car MOT, Medical renewal, etc, but would full-time instructing pay enough? I am working in aviation at the moment with a promise of employment after a certain period, but will I be let down again?? This time could be my lucky break... OR do I go and spend money on an FI rating and risk spiralling into more debt?! Who knows, but I have to make my mind up soon and that's the hardest bit. Everyone has advice on what you should do, but everyone's advice is conflicting and ends up being of no use as a result, just stresses you out more. I know what you're going thru mate, I wish I knew what to do right now. Anyone know the average salary for a fulltime FI?? I know I'd love doing it it's just my finances that have put me off.
I wonder if this will be the collective of those who don't make it?
If so, others could possibly be reassured by reading some of these posts and see a trend in the attitudes and efforts portrayed within. Just do the opposite and you'll probably make it.
Sure, one could have taken the "chin up mate" road but it appears that the level of self pity floating in here is beyond that worth trying to resurrect, and I just don't see a need to promote such attitudes as being ok.
The answer is (unfortunately for those seeking some magical fix) simple, at this point in time, there are still many GOOD people with appropriate experience and qualifications to employ, and so those with the aforementioned attitudes and a poxy CPL shall continue to be ignored for jobs that require more experience.
Honestly, go get a job commeserate with your experience.
Get over yourself, get out there and work your way up, get experience, get some self respect, build a career, earn a career, enjoy your career.
Or not.
Last edited by nike : 25th July 2007 at 07:35.
Reason: spelling (even google struggled with commeserate, still not sure!)
I know somebody who got a job on A320's because he had experience flying turboprops.
I know somebody who got a job flying 737's because she had 1000hrs Instructing.
I know somebody who got a job flying turboprops because he had experience as an FI and Air Taxi Pilot.
I know somebody who got a job as an Air Taxi pilot because he had experience in light aircraft as an FI.
It can be done, but not by moaning about the state of the industry. The only way is to "get one up".
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 1,578
Trislander,
If any of your debt's are unsecured then you can get the interest frozen and the repayments reduced on them via the Debt Councilling Service (a free charity organisation so no lousy concolidation loans req.). PM for more details - it could mean the difference between bancruptcy or a heart attack but at the very least will get the credit card companies off your back.
I passed my FI ratining in Aug 06 and got a job the very next day. I worked as a Flight Instructor for 6 months before I got offered a job flying a TP.
Being a Flight Instructor is hard work for little reward, BUT it is a stepping stone.
Keep flying and building experience it'll all come good.
I just wanted to say that I have been exactly the same as you guys and I know how awful it feels when you can't get a break. I finished OATS in April 2005 and with a new baby, wife and large mortgage was in dire straits financially for a few months. In the end I fell back into IT as a contractor and that gave me the means to:
a) Enjoy some of life's luxuries that we had missed for two years
b) Repay some debt
c) Keep my ratings current and hire commercial sims occasionally.
All of the above greatly improved my self esteem and general mood. I decided that I might or might not get a flying job in the end but I would keep trying. I was also aware that age (I'm now just turned 38) was against me too as was the domestic pressure of supporting a family.
After almost two years I was invited to interview with Flybe, got throught the sim and type rating and am now on the Q400 and completely loving it. I am however currently based 400 miles from wife and child so living out of B&B etc which isn't much fun!!
I hope that this proves of some comfort to those of you still waiting for a first break. Also I'd like to say that flying the Dash is a blast with plenty of hand flying, no autothrottle, some great Captains and good training. The money isn't good (yet) and the roster is pretty much max hours but it's all great experience. I was every bit as fed up as you feel though before I got a break so my advice is:
Go and get a job that puts money in your pocket so you can sort your finances out and start 'living' a bit.
Make a small number of well put together applications
Don't obsess about flying - focus on other aspects of your life that make you happy - family, friends, music, photography etc etc
Keep current.
If you get a job at a school somewhere sunny the amounts of hours you can rack up are practically limitless, like my previous instructor did. Wont do you any harm.
It strikes me there are 3 routes to get a job in this rancid industry:
in order of preference.
1. Have a training captain as a father. I have seen many un-deserving incompetent jokers get jobs this way.
2. Buy your way to a job, either buy a) paying a huge premium to go to an integrated school who for some reason the Airlines like to recruit from direct, overlooking countless numbers of worthy modular students.
or b) paying 20 odd k for a type rating and hoping for the best.
3. Working your way up from the bottom, through instructing to air taxi to charter work to turbo prop to jets.
The airline industry is a complete reflection of Brittish capitalist society, where the rich get richer and the poor are left to rot.
For me, it will be route number 3. I was simply un-able to afford integrated training and can no way pay for a TR. And as I sit, eating value beans, living off a pittance for the next few years, working my way up this stinking industry who can blame me for feeling angry as those who go through routes number one and two earn impressive sallaries and progress onto captaincy, buying nice detached houses, taking nice holidays in the Carribbean during the time it takes me to even get a sniff at getting my foot in the door.
A very down to earth thread this. A reality check and something that every wannabe should read. It should be a sticky I think. Its all very true, where are the jobs???
There are some disturbing accounts on here and I think the people who have shared that with us deserve a pat on the back for having the balls to do so. Im at the point where I am about to blow 25k away on all this flying lark. but am I??? This is the question. As much as I want to fly professionally the industry is obscene in its ways and methods.
Recruitment is not at all consistent. Examples are of billy boy with 250 hours walking strainght in a job after flight training and a person who has over 1000 hours and multi experince not getting sniffed at sometimes by the same company! Certainly for me this a severe worry.
Where I work now and in most normal industries if you have the credentials, ie qualifications, and dont make a **** of yourself by not filling in an application correctly, you usually have a chance of proving yourself in front of that employer at an interview, ie being given a chance.
The Aviation industry is so very ramdom in its recruiting methods. It is literally a lottery. This opinion has been stated on here before, but it is the most suitable anaolgy to put the situation. You buy your tickets all 30 to 60 grands worth, and hope for the best!!
The question is do I want to spend my 25 grand on lottery tickets? No one in thier right mind would do it for Camelot!! So why do it for a job?
Im still deciding.
If it's that much of an 'old boys network' industry then maybe the jobs are going to students from particular schools? Schools where the head of instructing is an ex Cpt from BA and still shares milk and cookies on a Friday evening with the head of BA recruitment etc....
I'm a wannabee and not as experienced in the industry as most of you guys but there are some schools that seem to have hazy employment prosepects and some that advertise guaranteed airline interviews.
I'm considering pilot training college in ireland and they boast 98% emplyment record within 2 months graduating, as well as a guaranteed airline interview.
Your whining really winds me up. What a shocker that not everyone gets the best job straight away. Believe it or not, it happens in plenty of other industries too. If your pre-training planning was SO poor that you are left having to eat value beans because you didn't get a jet job within 6 months then that's nobodies fault but your own. It is as simple as that. It's the flying equivalent of the Iraq war. Go in all guns blazing but with no real plan of what to do after the shooting has "stopped".
In my opinion sending out countless CV's will get you absolutely nowhere. most airlines don't even use them as a method of pre-screening anymore. If you haven't got a job but are sending them out in bundles maybe you should ask yourself what the hell you're doing. The people who are switched on will have tried other tacks and no doubt are in employment. For the record, I finished training in 2004 as a modular student. I, along with the vast majority of the people I trained with, are now flying jets. Equally, many friends who were on integrated courses have had similar success. There is only one I can think of who isn't and that was simply because he wasn't up to it. He had selections but didn't meet the grade and with that it's about time that people realised that having a ATPL(F) is only part of the jigsaw. The fact that people are expecting to walk into a job having 'bought' a licence shows an absolutely staggering level of naiivety.
"B..b..but i've got first time passes in everything". Go, with the other 200+ people who will do the same this year and tell it to the bank manager
One you MUST remember, however, is that if you get given an interview then you have to make damn sure you get the job. You never know when or where the next one might come from.
Vito Corleone - I usually try to offer help, advice and encouragement to those who are looking for a bit of moral support, especially to those who seem to want to help themselves. However the positive posts here, including mine, clearly didn't seem to help your attitude one jot.
Taking a reality check, very few pilots would ever get a job purely on the basis of one senior person they know in the industry. It might get them an interview at best, but pilot jobs are invariably offered on merit, taking their attitude into account. So they have to prove their suitability, their flying skills, their personality, and most importantly of all, their teachability during the interview. The recruiting captain will usually ask himself "could I sit next to this person for 6 hours, with no escape?" Given your rant about the state of the industry and the mini lecture on
Quote:
Brittish [sic] capitalist society
I think you would answer their question very clearly - NO!!!!
Why be so angry that the obvious route through instructing, smaller operators and turbo props to jets is slowly becoming clear to you? Surely your research before blowing your cash would show you that this is a very normal and sensible route. I'm sure you didn't jump straight into a Bentley turbo to do paid chauffeuring the day you passed your driving test? Why do you believe that the airlines are any different?
I flew for over 20 years, logging thousands of hours, instructing for much of it on almost anything that could fly, hang gliders, paragliders, gliders, microlights, aeroplanes and helicopters before I chose fly commercially in the airlines. It taught me a lot. I rather think that you still have an awful lot to learn before you have the remotest chance of succeeding in aviation. Why do you believe that you are owed a highly paid jet job 'straight out of school' when others have worked hard and worked their way up through the industry, learning as they go, for many years?
The weight of chips on your shoulder would make it almost impossible for you to fly. I came across many like you in my 17 years of teaching flying and each was a nightmare. Thankfully there were many more who made it a pleasure to teach, with their positive attitude, and willingness to learn. To succeed means having to learn. To learn means having to change. To change requires a positive, open mind, and to be adaptable. You show none of these essential qualities. And believe me, being teachable is the most important attribute when undertaking a type rating and line training - especially when the employer is paying!
For now, my best advice would be to save any money you have left - it could very well be wasted if spent chasing an airline job. Of all potential pilots, you are one of the prime candidates for self funding a type rating - no one else is going to do so for you with your attitude. You have just publicly advertised to every airline, every HR / recruitment department your true colours - what an own goal - I'm going red for you right now. Carry on like that, and you'll continue to score massive own goals, and you'll stay firmly earthbound.
Whereas you write of
Quote:
this rancid industry:
it seems that it is your attitude that stinks. Nobody is owed anything in life, and never does this become clearer than in aviation, where attitude is everything.
With so much bitterness and bile spouting forth, I really doubt whether you are employable as a pilot. Certainly, for most interviewers, if you showed any hint of your hatred of the industry, you would be out of the interview room before you knew it.
Whilst you reflect on this, you might also wish to consider the impression that the application form / letter / CV makes when landing on the interviewer's desk. Given that there are normally 50 CVs to be weeded out to select the 2 to be chosen for interview, you have already made that selection process so much easier with your spelling errors, even before you start your vitriolic outburst about the industry which you arrogantly and mistakenly expect to employ you.
I wish I could be more positive for you, but you reap what you sow. Positive thinking breeds success, and bitterness breeds failure. The ball is in your court, but presently your airline career appears doomed to failure.
PM
Last edited by pilotmike : 26th July 2007 at 16:37.
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