Interviews, jobs & sponsorshipDo ya feel lucky, Punk? Well do ya? If so, here's the place to swap the hot gen on who's sponsoring or employing, their selection criteria, and where those oh so elusive first jobs can be spotted in the wild. Watch out for the tumbleweeds...
Not at all, what I'm saying is that unless you have God like flying hours you shouldn't have a jet. If you were a Twin-turbine I'd say cool, I understand that but a jet?
..you feel this?
I was more than happy to fly what I could get, and be paid to fly. I applied to CityJet, for example (a smaller operator) and was told I wasn't required, yet they call guys up with less hours than me begging them to come to interview, as they were integrated!? Doesn't make any sense. Ryanair (love them or hate them) looked at me as a candidate with a licence, who proved my skill in the relevant flight test. It didn't matter what the school's name was worth, or how much I paid. If they flew turboprops, or something else, i'd have still applied, because I tried to sow my seed far and wide to secure a job.
The jobs market in the USA and Europe I don't feel can be compared anymore. The UK has little to offer in the way of air taxi operations or anything that would allow someone a reasonable stepping stone up to the big time - the USA on the other hand has a developed 'path' to the legacy carriers. People in the UK regularly go into jet jobs with 200 hours, and perform adequately on type ratings, with FR or otherwise. The simple reality is if they didn't, they wouldn't pass, and the airlines would stop taking them on - this isn't happening.
Incidentally, Ryanair don't actually have their own flight school, are you telling us that all pilots from CAE or SAS have easy passes in TR exams? You won't make friends that way, they are major training establishments!
Starting on an airliner with minimum hours used to be only for a select few. The good old boys who were sponsored in days gone by or whatever. Not any Tom Dick or Herbert who has the financial backing just to fulfill their 'dream'. I am a firm believer in that people should serve an apprenticeship in aviation. If you want to pay your way in thats fine, some people are never going to agree with it. Just have a look at it from the other side of the fence Horgy etal, before passing opinions on the merits of more experienced wannabees than yourselves. Many are from the camp which built up hours teaching PPL/CPL & IR and then went onto fly charter & TPs etc. You will find that the majority of the Captains you are going to share the flight deck with will also come from similair backgrounds, as do the guys that interview you. I have to say that I would have to think twice about letting my wife and kids get in a PA28 with a 200hour pilot. But its not the same as an airliner with a 200hr hotshot at the yoke you say? I know! and hopefully the skipper is switched on! Think about it. It may go some way to explain why people have opinions on low hour cadets handling an 80 ton aircraft with very limited aviation backgrounds. Limited or no real experience of real world conditions, out of the safe pat me on the back and try again training environment.
'I know who I would rather fly with', an opinion shared by nearly every other line Captain you meet when the subject pops into conversation. Newbees with zero hours and no commercial experience, bar a small minority are considered hard work on the flight deck. Fact!
With things the way they are in the job market now, having hours from a good aviation background are only going to help you. Either that or pay someone for a job and bypass all that valuable experience. Certainly dont waste time twiddling your thumbs waiting for those cvs to be read, be proactive and do the FI rating, fly a tug etc. You will always have more respect, if not more hours than the next man.
The majority of capts in my company were either sponsored cadets or ex-mil. Very, very few are ex-instructors. Furthermore, the majority of our TRIs/TREs are ex-cadets and, on my particular fleet, our Training Standard Captains are ex-cadets so I think the broad-brush statements like:
Quote:
You will find that the majority of the Captains you are going to share the flight deck with will also come from similair backgrounds, as do the guys that interview you.
can be extremely misleading.
Furthermore
Quote:
It may go some way to explain why people have opinions on low hour cadets handling an 80 ton aircraft with very limited aviation backgrounds. Limited or no real experience of real world conditions,
doesn't really hold much water since this applies to many of the F/Os in BA and our passenger figures are (amazingly I admit) very good.
And finally, before anyone suggests I have some axe to grind, I built time on SEPs before getting a job on TPs then moving to jets.
Is that Ham Phisted of BA fame again? Bar BA as mentioned in previous post quote 'sponsored in days gone by' you will find that most Captains etc in most 'other' airlines apart from yours come from similair backgrounds. Accepted that you have worked elsewhere apart from Gods airline, your post reads just as biased as the rest Nigel.
Is that Ham Phisted of BA fame again? Bar BA as mentioned in previous post quote 'sponsored in days gone by' you will find that most Captains etc in most 'other' airlines apart from yours come from similair backgrounds. Accepted that you have worked elsewhere apart from Gods airline, your post reads just as biased as the rest Nigel.
Except that the BA workforce represents just under half of active UK pilots, so cannot be dismissed as biased when it is half the sample...
Ok then, it sounds like you are saying that half of the UK airline pilot workforce started out as a cadet. Am I right? This being someone who went straight from training and into airline employment. We are not talking ex RAF top guns now are we? Simply the bare minimum hours with the necessary licence and ratings. i.e green as grass to jet. It would be interesting to see whether a poll would back up this theory.... Nothing against cadets either!
It could just as easily be argued that flying a fast jet in the military is not good preparation for a career as an airline pilot.
I think what BA does very well is integrate a wide array of backgrounds and experiences into its pilot body, whether that be low hours guys directly from Oxford, guys from TPs, guys already on type, guys from the military etc etc. They all bring something different to the party.
Mr. Horgy I feel this due to their needs to be a progression before one goes to 400 kph. With a great powerful aircraft comes great responsibility and one needs to have the 1000 hrs to turely understand the power. Plus for you it gives you a more credible CV, meaning more options, meaning more possibility for a PTR.
Now for Carbheatin's comments; most airlines you speak about are turbo-prop ops who most American pilots know hire low-houred skippers. Plus for all pilots the first year is difficult then it improves after that.
Agree with SR, to be selected for fast jet training in RAF means you are well above most in aptitude(not ex RAF myself).The selection at OAT is not & could not be so stringent.They do not compare.Had a mate who graduated from OAT in 2001,got a job eventually(years later)he just kept plugging away,flight instruction etc.
I'm not comparing them, just not sure to what degree the competencies or characteristics of a good fast jet pilot compare to those of a good airline pilot. Interestingly enough, it is stated in the Netjets thread (Bizjet forum) that there is a higher failure rate for command upgrade candidates with an RAF background than for candidates with a general aviation background.
getting your first job is a process. Find ways to fly other peoples planes - if you are sitting there saying "there are no jobs" and at the same time dont know the names of all the aerial photographic, banner towing, para dropping, glider towing, etc organisations then you are not putting in the effort that justifies spending the money on your licence. Its good to get a flying instruction rating, especially at the moment because you can get paid quite well to do it, but be aware that you dont teach people to fly so that you can accumulate hours. You do it to help people learn to fly and you will be crap at it if you think it simply fills your log book.
Some people do get lucky, some people get jobs through friends and family, but thats not how I did it and its not how most of the guys I know did it. A good friend of mine is an actor. He and I both have jobs that many other people would really like to have and both of us have scraped and clawed our way into these careers. He did years of community type theatre, I did almost 9000 take-offs and landing pulling gliders into the sky.
I read every single CV that I am sent and I reply if I can even if I can't offer anything. I towed gliders for 3 years before I got my CPL in 2000 and got my first job in 2004 (which cost me more to get to than I earned). I'm now fleet manager of a business jet company with 6 aircraft and 4 more due this quarter.
Its a great job, its worth wading through a lot of shit for, and I wish everyone that's trying to make it work out the very best of luck. I'll try to help specific problems but please dont bombard me - fairly busy nowadays..
hey guys.... I am invited to join interview with Aviators Trading ARC.
Anyone made any experience with them.
It seems, they have found a Employer for me....crazy...I have been looking for a Job and no one wanted me with my low hours... and they seem to have made it possible for me...
airlines apart from yours come from similair backgrounds. Accepted that you have worked elsewhere apart from Gods airline, your post reads just as biased as the rest Nigel.
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