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Old 21st Apr 2017, 17:36   #101 (permalink)
 
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Beazlebub, you seem to spend a lot of time posting long-winded justifications for airlines charging for training/type rating etc.... Do you perhaps work in the industry?

Ignoring the reasons for airlines doing what they are doing for a moment, do you agree with the practice of charging for type ratings?

While I agree that a desire "not to get their fingers burnt" played a part in airlines moving from funding training, to bonding it and then making the cadet pay it all, this does somewhat ignore the fact that many are now not only charging their but making handsome profit on top! This has nothing to do with risk and everything to do with increasing their margins.
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Old 21st Apr 2017, 18:02   #102 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Beazlebub, you seem to spend a lot of time posting long-winded justifications for airlines charging for training/type rating etc.... Do you perhaps work in the industry?
The airline industry? Yes! The commercial flight training industry? No!

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Ignoring the reasons for airlines doing what they are doing for a moment, do you agree with the practice of charging for type ratings?
No. But the point is, you cannot ignore the reasons behind the practice. By providing the history I would hope it helps with the understanding.

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While I agree that a desire "not to get their fingers burnt" played a part in airlines moving from funding training, to bonding it and then making the cadet pay it all, this does somewhat ignore the fact that many are now not only charging their but making handsome profit on top! This has nothing to do with risk and everything to do with increasing their margins.
They are commercial businesses, not charities or institutions of academia. Their entire raison d'Ítre is to make a profit. When they used to pay for this type of training it would do absolutely nothing for their margins when a few individuals availed themselves of it and then sold it on to somebody else. When they "bonded", it did nothing for their margins when a few individuals broke their contracts resulting in legal costs or fiscal write offs. The new reality in the world of "lo-co" aviation is of survival in those margins. If your competitors are making more profit than you are, then you are operating at a disadvantage that is likely to prove an existential threat eventually.

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About "Qualified" or not "Qualified". Some companies diesn't care if you already Type Rated and they can ask you to REDO it:
Yes, but again this has always been something of a fallacy. An airline recruiting a type rated pilot quite reasonably expects said pilot to have significant experience to go with that rating. In other words, they expect you to have been type rated by another airline in accordance with a structured training programme leading to experience with that airline. This type of experience should result in a low input risk for the airline. This is worlds away from somebody with low experience speculatively buying a type rating with no subsequent relevant experience, and then expecting an airline to accept this without any input from the new company. Far from from being advantageous, most companies would simply regard it as a big "red flag!"
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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 04:27   #103 (permalink)
 
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To add something to the 'how much is a type rating' argument I know two people who began working for easyjet in 2015/2016 employed by ctc flexicrew who both paid £30k for the type rating and a surprise £10k bond.
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Old 22nd Apr 2017, 11:48   #104 (permalink)
 
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There is too much commercialism in the aviation today. Thanks to the EU & liberal idea that made privatization of state aviation enterprises all over the continent possible. It's all about money for smart business mans in private aviation companies. They want to make huge profit without risking a cent.

On the other side - we risk 100k EUR during our study, we have to maintain our licenses and why shall we risk 100-400 EUR on job interviews & additional 30-40k EUR on TR courses?! Meanwhile passengers are flying for 20 EUR with all those wonderful & innovative low-cost & ACMI carriers?

We have to change the game. The airlines wouldn't exist without pilots.
It is in our interest to require a fully paid TR through a bond & good salary.
That is why they are "commercial airlines." The clue is in the title! It is all about supply and demand. Whereas once the supply of experienced pilots to airlines was sourced from the military and other commercial operators. Those sources only provided a balanced supply at a relatively high cost. In other words relatively high wages and good ancillary terms and conditions. As you progressed further and further up the totem pole, so the rewards became greater in order to attract that "talent." In a capitalist world that isn't something unique to airlines, it is a widespread modus operandi across all businesses.

The growth of lo-cost airlines (and again the clue is in the title) sought to reduce all of their controllable input costs. That was achieved by increasing the supply such that the balance was achieved at a much lower price point. The "experience" requirements were shifted from the right seat to the left seat, and regulation changes facilitated and enabled those changes. The floodgates were opened to an entire "X factor" generation of people who no longer needed to follow traditional experience pathways to airlines, yet they (erroneously) clung on to the idea that success would be rewarded the way it always had been until that point.

The growing oversupply achieved the goal of bringing the balanced price point (wages and T&C's) way down. I would suggest it has a very long to go before the supply/demand curves reach any sort of equilibrium in the foreseeable future. By starting in the right place, it was inevitable that the lower input costs would in time spread across to the left seat, and sure enough they have.

There is an obvious paradox in these forums being awash with people who strive to reduce their own costs, yet seem perplexed that commercial airline companies would do the same. The reality of the world is that there is a great deal of experience "for sale" and the price (wages) of that experience is falling in real terms. When it comes to "inexperience" (and that is of relevance to these specific forums/threads/posts) the supply is simply huge, with no signs (at the current levels of experience requirement) of that getting any more balanced anytime soon.

I would recommend a viewpoint that assumes flight training, and houses, and cars, and boats, etc. will be "eye-wateringly" expensive in the future. Supply and demand is likely to ensure this remains the case, and competition will continue to ensure the survival of the fittest.

Anyway these are broader issues that deviate this thread off track, and perhaps it needs steering back to jobs for FTE grads as a specific issue.
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Old 10th May 2017, 16:42   #105 (permalink)
 
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To try and bring the thread back on track, does anyone have an idea what the employment prospects are like at present for FTE cadets?
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Old 19th May 2017, 11:11   #106 (permalink)
 
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reasonably good. some friends i know are there at the moment and say most of the students who aren't on airline schemes have gone to Easy Jet.
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Old 19th May 2017, 19:21   #107 (permalink)
 
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a fried of main, whom just finshed his traning with them a month ago said everyone that were self sponsered in his class including him got into EZ exept 2, 1 flank out and 1 got knocked back a class due to APTL failures and still didn't finish.
they are currently doing their TR and are close to finish and start line traning..
overall out of the 6 that finished the self sponsered with him 6 got into EZ, not bad ill say..
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Old 10th Jun 2017, 09:20   #108 (permalink)
 
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Good morning,
Regarding easyjet, must the cadets need to pay the tope rating on easyjet? Exist the possibility of a training loan by easy?
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Old 10th Jun 2017, 10:21   #109 (permalink)
 
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No training loan from easyJet.
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Old 10th Jun 2017, 11:55   #110 (permalink)
 
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And what is the approx price for type rating for easyjet?
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Old 10th Jun 2017, 20:16   #111 (permalink)
 
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It's 35k Euros.
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Old 29th Jun 2017, 11:18   #112 (permalink)
 
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I've heard of Aer Lingus coming in and taking self sponsored cadets recently, and giving interviews. Would that be consistent with what others have heard?
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Old 29th Jun 2017, 11:22   #113 (permalink)
 
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Yes, that's correct.
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Old 29th Jun 2017, 23:44   #114 (permalink)
 
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Will that be continuing into the future then?
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Old 29th Jun 2017, 23:46   #115 (permalink)
 
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I don't know for certain the arrangement the school has, I can just confirm people have been sent there (self-sponsored) and some more will undoubtedly be going there too.
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