Loganair
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Ambulance Charlie Alpha
Sorry to say that since you left Logi things have got much worse, longer duty hours, less days off or standby. Flying is still great but quality of life almost down to zero. The new scheme has just been introduced and I can confirm that it is a non refundable 13.5k and then 6k for circuits and line training over 3 years. Sad that they have gone this way.
Bantermanter
Get your facts straight. I find it hard to believe that you know guys who have been trainers at Loganair for a long time, most of the trainers are very recent appointments and the longer term trainers have either already left or will have gone by the end of the year. Three very good trainers are leaving this month alone. the total number of trainers who will have left in this year will be in excess of 75% of the training staff. For the most part the training staff are all on minimum rest, maximum roster disruption and constant training. Hardly surprising that they have had enough and are looking for pastures new. With very few exceptions the training staff will consist of trainers with about twelve months of comercial line training experience. Three of the companies five TRE's will have left by the end of the year, fed up with the long periods of time in Sweden.
Loganair is a great company, with the best flying you will ever get, but if they keep going in their present direction with regard to the way they work their crews, they will be stuck with the first timers who have no other choice but to pay for a TR and are only marking time to get out and get a REAL job. Their views not mine.
Sorry to say that since you left Logi things have got much worse, longer duty hours, less days off or standby. Flying is still great but quality of life almost down to zero. The new scheme has just been introduced and I can confirm that it is a non refundable 13.5k and then 6k for circuits and line training over 3 years. Sad that they have gone this way.
Bantermanter
Get your facts straight. I find it hard to believe that you know guys who have been trainers at Loganair for a long time, most of the trainers are very recent appointments and the longer term trainers have either already left or will have gone by the end of the year. Three very good trainers are leaving this month alone. the total number of trainers who will have left in this year will be in excess of 75% of the training staff. For the most part the training staff are all on minimum rest, maximum roster disruption and constant training. Hardly surprising that they have had enough and are looking for pastures new. With very few exceptions the training staff will consist of trainers with about twelve months of comercial line training experience. Three of the companies five TRE's will have left by the end of the year, fed up with the long periods of time in Sweden.
Loganair is a great company, with the best flying you will ever get, but if they keep going in their present direction with regard to the way they work their crews, they will be stuck with the first timers who have no other choice but to pay for a TR and are only marking time to get out and get a REAL job. Their views not mine.
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Does anyone know how Logan go about their recruitment process for newbees? I believe a simple 'lift the phone to see who's available' probably operates for schools like OAT and FTE? As previously stated, I also came across an advert by FlightSafety which suggested those successful on their Saab 340 MCC course at Farnborough would (more like COULD possibly!!) be offered an interview! 
Does the airline take into account that those already settled in Scotland and wanting to remain in Scotland may be more suited candidates? Or is it prepared to sift through hundreds of online CV's in order to find newbee modular students that could fit this bill? (a previous post entitled "what's going on in Scotland" by an experienced instructor based up here who had tried on several occassions to get into Logan makes me doubt this, however I don't know).
I understand that the newly adapted system of TR and training payment may affect Logan badly (over a period of time) however there will always be people out there willing to conform to the system!
Does the airline take into account that those already settled in Scotland and wanting to remain in Scotland may be more suited candidates? Or is it prepared to sift through hundreds of online CV's in order to find newbee modular students that could fit this bill? (a previous post entitled "what's going on in Scotland" by an experienced instructor based up here who had tried on several occassions to get into Logan makes me doubt this, however I don't know).
I understand that the newly adapted system of TR and training payment may affect Logan badly (over a period of time) however there will always be people out there willing to conform to the system!
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Hi All
Regarding the minimum days off etc. I left the company in Feb 2005. My last few months there were rostered with few standby duties and minimum days off. I've spoken to and looked at many of my ex-colleagues rosters over the last few months and don't see them to be that much different now. Infact, they don't see things to be that much different either. I'm sure the Captains and trainers are working much harder at the moment, but from the F/Os side, they seem to be at the same work level as before I left. As I remember, the only time the F/O workload dropped off was when a new intake of crew were being line trained. Regarding disruption due to weather. Well, that's living in Scotland for you. It's never been any different.
Obviously, it's easy to comment from the outside looking in, but I remember when I was there that as the long shifts and multiple sectors rolled on, you began to develop a very jaundiced view of the environment you were in. Hoping that a standby would be a chance of catching up some rest. Being fatigued and looking for a light at the end of the tunnel. Jet recruitment seems to be that light at the moment.
On the flip side, the grass is not always greener. Flying jets on 3 earlies and then going straight into a deep night flight without days off fries the brain too. So does 6 or 7 hours from GLA to Egypt and return in the same shift. I would swap a KOI nightstop for that anyday. Days off are still spent sleeping and walking round in a daze rather than just living life. The difference is that my winter season is quiet where as Loganair's keeps rolling on at a similar pace.
The current pilots that I have spoken to at Loganair in just the last few days actually don't blame the airline for the current mass exodus. They blame it on a bouyant jet recruitment market with significant opportunities for low houred turbo-prop drivers who are taking them whilst they are on offer. A lot of them would be staying on for their commands if this wasn't the case. Not my opinion but that of guys doing the job there.
Just a shame about the TR scheme they've switched to.
ACA
Regarding the minimum days off etc. I left the company in Feb 2005. My last few months there were rostered with few standby duties and minimum days off. I've spoken to and looked at many of my ex-colleagues rosters over the last few months and don't see them to be that much different now. Infact, they don't see things to be that much different either. I'm sure the Captains and trainers are working much harder at the moment, but from the F/Os side, they seem to be at the same work level as before I left. As I remember, the only time the F/O workload dropped off was when a new intake of crew were being line trained. Regarding disruption due to weather. Well, that's living in Scotland for you. It's never been any different.
Obviously, it's easy to comment from the outside looking in, but I remember when I was there that as the long shifts and multiple sectors rolled on, you began to develop a very jaundiced view of the environment you were in. Hoping that a standby would be a chance of catching up some rest. Being fatigued and looking for a light at the end of the tunnel. Jet recruitment seems to be that light at the moment.
On the flip side, the grass is not always greener. Flying jets on 3 earlies and then going straight into a deep night flight without days off fries the brain too. So does 6 or 7 hours from GLA to Egypt and return in the same shift. I would swap a KOI nightstop for that anyday. Days off are still spent sleeping and walking round in a daze rather than just living life. The difference is that my winter season is quiet where as Loganair's keeps rolling on at a similar pace.
The current pilots that I have spoken to at Loganair in just the last few days actually don't blame the airline for the current mass exodus. They blame it on a bouyant jet recruitment market with significant opportunities for low houred turbo-prop drivers who are taking them whilst they are on offer. A lot of them would be staying on for their commands if this wasn't the case. Not my opinion but that of guys doing the job there.
Just a shame about the TR scheme they've switched to.
ACA
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If you want an idea of loganair rostering patterns....then this might help.
june.
2 on, 1 off, 2on, 1 stby, 3 on, 1 off, 7leave, 1 off, 6 on, 2 off, 4 on.
65 hrs logged.
july.
2 days off, 4 on, 1 off, 7 on, 2 off, 1 on, 2 stby, 2 on, 2 off, 5 on, 2off, 1 on.
56hrs logged.
And august is about the same.
The average day is 4 or 5 sectors. duties tent to start at 6, 7 ,9 in the morning, or 3, 4, 5 in the afternon. Theres usually 5 - 7 night stops a month. and there all based on min rest at the nightstop destination.
This is probably normal though these days.
hope this helps anyone whose interested.
june.
2 on, 1 off, 2on, 1 stby, 3 on, 1 off, 7leave, 1 off, 6 on, 2 off, 4 on.
65 hrs logged.
july.
2 days off, 4 on, 1 off, 7 on, 2 off, 1 on, 2 stby, 2 on, 2 off, 5 on, 2off, 1 on.
56hrs logged.
And august is about the same.
The average day is 4 or 5 sectors. duties tent to start at 6, 7 ,9 in the morning, or 3, 4, 5 in the afternon. Theres usually 5 - 7 night stops a month. and there all based on min rest at the nightstop destination.
This is probably normal though these days.
hope this helps anyone whose interested.
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A hell of a lot b
cks and Logan-bashing going on here and I'm not entirely sure most of it's warranted. Sure it's not the same as in the good ol' days, but tell me what airline is.
Looking at the TRS situation from a purely company perspective here, it's hard not to blame the management for carrying it out. Situation goes something along the lines of this: some foreign blokes phone up saying that they've paid for an SF340 rating and would like to work for Logan, oh yeah and p.s. we can subsidise our own line training. So Logan get the same product without the outlay of £380-ish per month and also make a nice profit out of the line training too - can't say I blame them, makes good financial sense to me. In an ideal world I'd like to see Logan giving starts to our own boys and girls, but the problem now lies with prospective employees giving Logan the oppertunity to change the goal posts.
Amber, you're absolutley right, Logan have lost a hell of a lot of line trainers - all extremely good guys, (75% a fair description), but most left due to rostering problems and a lot have gone to BMI Regional, where, guess what, the current workforce there are complaining about roster instability and threatning strike action, so as Ambulance Charlie Alpha says, the grass isn't always greener! Some of these guys would probably have left anyway perhaps. After four plus years flying the same aircraft to the same places who wouldn't want a change of scenery, if only to keep fresh or find a new challenge. I wouldn't say it was disrespectful to state that, like other TP operators in the UK, Logan is becoming a training airline for the jet boys and the migration to other companies is, as has been stated a factor of high recruitment levels of guys with multi-pilot experience.
Yup Logan-guys are working hard. Heard that some rosters are more in the line of 6 on, one off, five on, two off etc etc, with the ABZ guys working a hell of a lot harder than the 400 hrs max per year that toastal claims, (try upping that by about 50%). But lets face it, who isn't working hard. Seems it's just a sign of the times.
As for the fleet. The Saab isn't the all singing all dancing shiny new TP it could be, but for what it does and the amount of punishment it takes on the island routes, (especially in winter), it holds up pretty well. Wouldn't fancy landing a Dornier 328 into LSI on a stormy winter's night!
Anyway, rant over
cks and Logan-bashing going on here and I'm not entirely sure most of it's warranted. Sure it's not the same as in the good ol' days, but tell me what airline is.Looking at the TRS situation from a purely company perspective here, it's hard not to blame the management for carrying it out. Situation goes something along the lines of this: some foreign blokes phone up saying that they've paid for an SF340 rating and would like to work for Logan, oh yeah and p.s. we can subsidise our own line training. So Logan get the same product without the outlay of £380-ish per month and also make a nice profit out of the line training too - can't say I blame them, makes good financial sense to me. In an ideal world I'd like to see Logan giving starts to our own boys and girls, but the problem now lies with prospective employees giving Logan the oppertunity to change the goal posts.
Amber, you're absolutley right, Logan have lost a hell of a lot of line trainers - all extremely good guys, (75% a fair description), but most left due to rostering problems and a lot have gone to BMI Regional, where, guess what, the current workforce there are complaining about roster instability and threatning strike action, so as Ambulance Charlie Alpha says, the grass isn't always greener! Some of these guys would probably have left anyway perhaps. After four plus years flying the same aircraft to the same places who wouldn't want a change of scenery, if only to keep fresh or find a new challenge. I wouldn't say it was disrespectful to state that, like other TP operators in the UK, Logan is becoming a training airline for the jet boys and the migration to other companies is, as has been stated a factor of high recruitment levels of guys with multi-pilot experience.
Yup Logan-guys are working hard. Heard that some rosters are more in the line of 6 on, one off, five on, two off etc etc, with the ABZ guys working a hell of a lot harder than the 400 hrs max per year that toastal claims, (try upping that by about 50%). But lets face it, who isn't working hard. Seems it's just a sign of the times.
As for the fleet. The Saab isn't the all singing all dancing shiny new TP it could be, but for what it does and the amount of punishment it takes on the island routes, (especially in winter), it holds up pretty well. Wouldn't fancy landing a Dornier 328 into LSI on a stormy winter's night!
Anyway, rant over
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Originally Posted by JTFC
Wouldn't fancy landing a Dornier 328 into LSI on a stormy winter's night!
Anyway... yep plenty of moaning but there will still be people that will jump at the chance of getting into Loganair. If you join with 1000 hours plus then good chances for a quick command!
Edited to say that many of you are moaning at Loganair and that the fact that generosity has gone out the window etc. Loganair like any other airline is involved in the core business of transporting people from A to B. Their core business is not providing type ratings that are easy on the pocket. In this day and age, a traditional bond is now a luxury and not the norm that it was 5 or so years ago - I don't like the way things have turned out but hey what can we do? The industry has changed and airlines must be more cost effective and training always bleeds cash from any airline, especially for a prop airline like Loganair. The beancounters are on a winner with this scheme and who can blame them? In their eyes the outlay of cash to train someone will be offset with the payment from the candidate. Business wise it makes perfect sense however the ethics can and are being discussed at great length! I am not saying I endorse what Loganair have done but I am trying to get you to see that Loganair are simply trying to move with the times! Whether they will recruit the calibre and the quantity of individuals that they need with this scheme, remains to be seen and I am very interested to see how they do!
Lets imagine we are in Logan Towers (well not quite) in Glasgow.
Beancounter to Jim Cameron (Loganair Chief Exec)
"Jim... got a great way that will save us thousands in costs per year - I propose that we get new pilots to fund their own training.
Jim Cameron to Beancounter
"Ok - amaze me and tell me just how much do you expect to save"?
Beancounter to Jim Cameron
"Well if we have 30 new pilots in one year then that is £600,000!!
"Need I say any more...? Anyway that above exchange was intended to be humorous and slightly tongue in cheek but it must show you all how management are never going to turn down a scheme where by they save costs!
Anyway with the silly price for JET-A1... can you blame any airline to cut costs in other areas of their business?
I don't work for Logan and never have but they are a good solid grounding and if you have never flown in the Scottish islands then you don't know what your missing - R33 at LSI with a stonking WNW-NW wind sorts out the men from the boys! Night Palma anyone? ...
in comparison. My flying involves lots of island flying and whilst poling round in a low level circuit today and following country roads and coastlines which lead to short final... fun is a understatement. The skipper I was with said that it is the best fun you can have in a commercial aircraft and that anyone can fly into LHR but the highlands and islands are different.
Don't mock the SF340 or the flying - a solid grounding and one that you will look back at with fond memories in the future!
Last edited by Mister Geezer; 14th Aug 2006 at 23:37.
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Originally Posted by Mister Geezer
Anyway with the silly price for JET-A1... can you blame any airline to cut costs in other areas of their business?
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Not foregoing the valid commercial reasons for charging for type ratings, there are either a lot of managers here defending the new Logan policy or a lot of pilots (who have the comfort of having multi crew time under their belts) who have forgotten what it was like. I would have thought it would be the latter and I bet a good portion of you had bonding available to you back in the day so just remember its your fellow colleagues that you are not supporting!
Dont forget that when your colleague is massively in debt and is not in a position to stand up and ask for what they are actually worth because they "had" to accept terms such as these, they will be no good to you when you are wanting support for an increase in your terms and conditions. They will sell out to save their own bacon at the earliest chance because they have no other option! This new Logan scheme while (possibly) economic for the company is only going to serve to increase debt and desperation amongst new pilots. That is not a good thing!! Pilots coming out of training with a mortgage and no house to show for it is going to hurt the pilot community in the long run! Start supporting your fellow pilots, if only by speaking out against schemes such as these and.....
STOP STICKING YOUR HEADS IN THE SAND!
Dont forget that when your colleague is massively in debt and is not in a position to stand up and ask for what they are actually worth because they "had" to accept terms such as these, they will be no good to you when you are wanting support for an increase in your terms and conditions. They will sell out to save their own bacon at the earliest chance because they have no other option! This new Logan scheme while (possibly) economic for the company is only going to serve to increase debt and desperation amongst new pilots. That is not a good thing!! Pilots coming out of training with a mortgage and no house to show for it is going to hurt the pilot community in the long run! Start supporting your fellow pilots, if only by speaking out against schemes such as these and.....
STOP STICKING YOUR HEADS IN THE SAND!
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I do fall into the latter category since I am fortunate to have a commercial flying job. However I was not handed my first job on a plate and had to fight for it just as much as anyone would today. I was fortunate to have a traditional bond when I joined for my first job. My second job which I am in now, resulted in the cost of the rating being docked off the salary over the bond period. Not a practice I agree with but I couldn't turn down a jet job at my home base when the 'reduced' salary was obviously still better than what I was on when I was on props! Anyway this penny-pinching technique backfires since no matter if you stay or go then you still pay for the rating! The bond then becomes less significant!!!
Deep down I am sure that we all support you lot and I didn't say I agreed with the practice of paying for your rating. However, no matter how many people stand up and object to management in any airline - the end result is never noticeable and we are often still stuck in square one with the penpushers ignoring any comments. I know some Loganair guys and they have told me that they personally disagree with the new scheme - however if any issues were presented to Loganair management, I am sure they would fall on deaf ears. The upper echelons of airline management are essentially all the same - they sit in what could be sound proofed offices since they never seem to hear what goes on outside!!! Airlines seem to be very good at tight penny pinching which makes no sense whilst allowing other areas of the business to bleed money!!!
BALPA seem to have a struggle keeping their members happy with airline issues so trying to talk airlines out of getting candidates for paying would be low on their priorities. The CAA don't care since it is nothing to do with them anyway since training standards should be the same no matter who pays for the training! Perhaps the IPA would be the most likely organisation that would be willing to listen but then again they can do nothing?
elevengflyer
You made a reference to investing in training which is a valid point. However for a regional turboprop carrier such as Loganair then training costs could easily be looked upon as unnecessary high expenditure as opposed to an investment. If you invest in something then you expect to get a return over time but it would be interesting to see how long a F/O stays at Loganair - at least half at a guess won't see out the 3 year bond that was previously used. At Virgin for example where most people stay for a long time then the company will get a return for their money since that person will stay and serve the company for a number of years! Different perspective when you look at it from that point of view!
Interesting that you point out that 'synergies' could be made between Loganair and BA with regards to how the company operates. A lesser well known BA franchise operator has been charging for type ratings for years!!! Sun Air in Denmark which has the Union Flag draped on its tails makes future pilots work on the ground as baggage handlers and work their way up the ranks on the ground before still having to shell out for the course despite being employed!
Airlines are gradually eroding the terms and conditions and final salary pensions have been killed off to albeit a few and now it is the turn for airlines paying for type ratings!
I do fall into the latter category since I am fortunate to have a commercial flying job. However I was not handed my first job on a plate and had to fight for it just as much as anyone would today. I was fortunate to have a traditional bond when I joined for my first job. My second job which I am in now, resulted in the cost of the rating being docked off the salary over the bond period. Not a practice I agree with but I couldn't turn down a jet job at my home base when the 'reduced' salary was obviously still better than what I was on when I was on props! Anyway this penny-pinching technique backfires since no matter if you stay or go then you still pay for the rating! The bond then becomes less significant!!!
Deep down I am sure that we all support you lot and I didn't say I agreed with the practice of paying for your rating. However, no matter how many people stand up and object to management in any airline - the end result is never noticeable and we are often still stuck in square one with the penpushers ignoring any comments. I know some Loganair guys and they have told me that they personally disagree with the new scheme - however if any issues were presented to Loganair management, I am sure they would fall on deaf ears. The upper echelons of airline management are essentially all the same - they sit in what could be sound proofed offices since they never seem to hear what goes on outside!!! Airlines seem to be very good at tight penny pinching which makes no sense whilst allowing other areas of the business to bleed money!!!
BALPA seem to have a struggle keeping their members happy with airline issues so trying to talk airlines out of getting candidates for paying would be low on their priorities. The CAA don't care since it is nothing to do with them anyway since training standards should be the same no matter who pays for the training! Perhaps the IPA would be the most likely organisation that would be willing to listen but then again they can do nothing?
elevengflyer
You made a reference to investing in training which is a valid point. However for a regional turboprop carrier such as Loganair then training costs could easily be looked upon as unnecessary high expenditure as opposed to an investment. If you invest in something then you expect to get a return over time but it would be interesting to see how long a F/O stays at Loganair - at least half at a guess won't see out the 3 year bond that was previously used. At Virgin for example where most people stay for a long time then the company will get a return for their money since that person will stay and serve the company for a number of years! Different perspective when you look at it from that point of view!
Interesting that you point out that 'synergies' could be made between Loganair and BA with regards to how the company operates. A lesser well known BA franchise operator has been charging for type ratings for years!!! Sun Air in Denmark which has the Union Flag draped on its tails makes future pilots work on the ground as baggage handlers and work their way up the ranks on the ground before still having to shell out for the course despite being employed!
Airlines are gradually eroding the terms and conditions and final salary pensions have been killed off to albeit a few and now it is the turn for airlines paying for type ratings!
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Mister Geezer, No one here disagrees that it is bad to buy a type rating but when experienced guys like yourself, make very informed comments on this forum, those comments will have a bearing on some of those PPruners who dont have the experience or industry knowledge to realise how much of a detriment it is to their over all situation. They are the same PPruners who have been told it is acceptable, and believe it is ok to spend anywhere between 60K and 100K on a license by their FTO!
Sadly, many new FATPL holders think their only option is to buy a type rating straight after their training and unless we as professional, employed pilots tell them that schemes like this are not in their or our best interests, the message wont get through and it will hurt us in the long run. Not to mention the fact that I dont have any desire to see my fellow colleagues shell out money they dont have to spend!
My views are selfish because I dont want my future pay and conditions undermined but at the same time, I genuinely feel for those who shouldnt, but are, paying more than they need to! There are those here that are going to tell me one cant make a difference. I have heard it before but if they all directed their effort from telling me it cant be done to telling others what should be happening, things might just change!
MG, I seriously mean no disrespect to you because you have some very valid points and obviously know your stuff but the apathy in today's industry really annoys me! Im not saying we need to strike or similar, that would be impractical. We do however need to channel our efforts in a constructive way and giving advice or gently persuading new pilots to stand their ground for what they deserve is a very good place to start!
Sadly, many new FATPL holders think their only option is to buy a type rating straight after their training and unless we as professional, employed pilots tell them that schemes like this are not in their or our best interests, the message wont get through and it will hurt us in the long run. Not to mention the fact that I dont have any desire to see my fellow colleagues shell out money they dont have to spend!
My views are selfish because I dont want my future pay and conditions undermined but at the same time, I genuinely feel for those who shouldnt, but are, paying more than they need to! There are those here that are going to tell me one cant make a difference. I have heard it before but if they all directed their effort from telling me it cant be done to telling others what should be happening, things might just change!
MG, I seriously mean no disrespect to you because you have some very valid points and obviously know your stuff but the apathy in today's industry really annoys me! Im not saying we need to strike or similar, that would be impractical. We do however need to channel our efforts in a constructive way and giving advice or gently persuading new pilots to stand their ground for what they deserve is a very good place to start!
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Recently, AL recalled their cadets from 2001. Management tried to erode Ts & Cs, but senior pilots in the company objected and management had to back down. It's up to senior pilots in companies to put pressure on management to protect and improve Ts & Cs for themselves and new recruits.
I find it interesting how low-hours pilots in Europe avoid instructing at the cost of a TR. In the US and most other parts of the world, you can expect to be instructing until your reach 1500hrs. How many low-hour pilots in the US shell out for a TR?
Quote: There are those here that are going to tell me one cant make a difference. I have heard it before but if they all directed their effort from telling me it cant be done to telling others what should be happening, things might just change! We do however need to channel our efforts in a constructive way and giving advice or gently persuading new pilots to stand their ground for what they deserve is a very good place to start!
I completely agree with you. The unnecessary dangers of paying for a TR should be publicised, and should be highlighted by experienced, well-respected pilots. Things can change for the better but we need less talk, more action! Get off the fence!
It's all very easy to say young low-hour pilots should not pay for a TR, but who has the nerve/patience/discipline to turn down a chance of an airline job in the belief that another airline will pay for their TR? If they don't get a job, the interest on their loans will mount up. While instructing should be a great job, you'll hardly make enough for loan repayments, especially if you've paid for a integrated course and a TR and/or FI unless you had funds ready for such a situation.
I find it interesting how low-hours pilots in Europe avoid instructing at the cost of a TR. In the US and most other parts of the world, you can expect to be instructing until your reach 1500hrs. How many low-hour pilots in the US shell out for a TR?
Quote: There are those here that are going to tell me one cant make a difference. I have heard it before but if they all directed their effort from telling me it cant be done to telling others what should be happening, things might just change! We do however need to channel our efforts in a constructive way and giving advice or gently persuading new pilots to stand their ground for what they deserve is a very good place to start!
I completely agree with you. The unnecessary dangers of paying for a TR should be publicised, and should be highlighted by experienced, well-respected pilots. Things can change for the better but we need less talk, more action! Get off the fence!
It's all very easy to say young low-hour pilots should not pay for a TR, but who has the nerve/patience/discipline to turn down a chance of an airline job in the belief that another airline will pay for their TR? If they don't get a job, the interest on their loans will mount up. While instructing should be a great job, you'll hardly make enough for loan repayments, especially if you've paid for a integrated course and a TR and/or FI unless you had funds ready for such a situation.
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Capt, While I agree with you in principle, its not about having the nerve to hold out for a company to buy your type rating. Its about being given the right information in the first place. Hundreds of wanabees peruse this forum in the hope of getting information on how they can get their license and a job because the only other real source of info is from the FTOs and we know that many of those price their courses well above their actual worth and base cost! If people here, tell them the status quo is to buy a type rating and fork out £60k for training, many will blindly believe that information.
The truth is that you dont have to get mortgage sized loans to fund your desire to be a pilot. My bill came to £30k, incl accomodation and for that sum I have an ICAO license and an FATPL. I have just been offered a dream job with an extremely reasonable bond which is absolutely minimal and it was all through sheer hard work and determination. I have turned down numerous interviews where I was told buying the type rating was mandatory and I am looking very much forward to my future.
It is those who are investigating their training options that we need to inform. We need to inform them of all the great ways of building experience (instructing, photo recon, meat bomb dropping and glider towing etc), building contacts and getting a value for money qualification that is going to let them do the best job in the world. That will help us and the future pilots get what we deserve for the job that we do and it will help protect those new to the industry!
We can start by telling wanabee pilots that they shouldnt pay for type ratings and that they should avoid schemes like the new one at Logan or we can collectively stick our heads in the sand!
Loganair has made the call to only accept type rated pilots and then bond them for a stupid amount for line training. That is a commercial decision that has sound backing when talking to the beancounters but should we as pilots be defending Logans right to effectively charge for a "service" as some here see it or should we be educating our future colleagues. There are wanabees here who are rightfully pissed off and we should be supporting them to that end so that the next wanabee knows the real deal!!! The apathy in this industry is pathetic!
The truth is that you dont have to get mortgage sized loans to fund your desire to be a pilot. My bill came to £30k, incl accomodation and for that sum I have an ICAO license and an FATPL. I have just been offered a dream job with an extremely reasonable bond which is absolutely minimal and it was all through sheer hard work and determination. I have turned down numerous interviews where I was told buying the type rating was mandatory and I am looking very much forward to my future.
It is those who are investigating their training options that we need to inform. We need to inform them of all the great ways of building experience (instructing, photo recon, meat bomb dropping and glider towing etc), building contacts and getting a value for money qualification that is going to let them do the best job in the world. That will help us and the future pilots get what we deserve for the job that we do and it will help protect those new to the industry!
We can start by telling wanabee pilots that they shouldnt pay for type ratings and that they should avoid schemes like the new one at Logan or we can collectively stick our heads in the sand!
Loganair has made the call to only accept type rated pilots and then bond them for a stupid amount for line training. That is a commercial decision that has sound backing when talking to the beancounters but should we as pilots be defending Logans right to effectively charge for a "service" as some here see it or should we be educating our future colleagues. There are wanabees here who are rightfully pissed off and we should be supporting them to that end so that the next wanabee knows the real deal!!! The apathy in this industry is pathetic!