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Freight Dogs Finally a forum for those midnight prowler types who utilise the unglamorous parts of airports that many of us never get to see. Freight Dogs is for pilots and crew who operate mostly without SLF.


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Old 24th Sep 2012, 12:30   #1 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: belgique
Age: 34
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Help us to keep our european cargo jobs

Help us to keep our european pilot jobs :

Hundreds of European Pilot Jobs given away to the US[]
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Old 24th Sep 2012, 14:34   #2 (permalink)
 
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BeCA

The BeCA. What a group of highly competant, non racist, worldly & astute people they are. They worked so hard to save sabena & VX. And today they are trying so hard to help Brussels Airlines survive.

NOT!!
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Old 24th Sep 2012, 14:53   #3 (permalink)

Freight God
 
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I did not know that the Belgian regulations require a third man in the cockpit before reaching 8 hours (the limit for US internatonal rules), but it is always interesting to learn something more.
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Old 24th Sep 2012, 15:09   #4 (permalink)
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Get in touch with the French Union. There have been major changes in legislation recently, basically within the EU you now are based from a tax point of view wherever you start your duty, irrespective of what your contract says.
This has lead to the closure of the Paris "base" by Cathay Pacific for example.

I personally do not mind open skies for pilots, but as long as European pilots are not allowed to work in the U.S. we should not allow US pilots to work in Europe.

Last edited by 711; 24th Sep 2012 at 15:11.
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Old 24th Sep 2012, 20:08   #5 (permalink)
 
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Not Quite correct 711

That legislation only refers to Social charges , Taxation is governed by tax treaties between individual EU states as each state is responsible for its own Taxation rates within the EU
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Old 24th Sep 2012, 21:07   #6 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
I personally do not mind open skies for pilots, but as long as European pilots are not allowed to work in the U.S. we should not allow US pilots to work in Europe.
I work with several European pilots in my [US] airline. I don't know why you think they are not allowed...
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Old 24th Sep 2012, 21:26   #7 (permalink)
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Non-US citizen need a Green Card, so effectively are banned.

And yes, the law change refers to social contributions etc, that is quite correct. I am not a lawyer, but I understand this wil have implications on tax as well.
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Old 24th Sep 2012, 21:41   #8 (permalink)
 
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Non-US citizens need a greencard to work in the US...

Non-EU citizens more often than not require an unrestricted European passport, aka they have to acquire EU/EEA citizenship... So effectively banned/locked out from all but a handful of companies
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Old 25th Sep 2012, 00:35   #9 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Europe
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The EU is not, despite many attempts to prove the opposite, to be considered as one single domestic market. Thus, when Fed/UPS are flying BCN-CGN/CDG they're operating an international flight, and are as free to do that as DHL would be to fly CVG-somewhere not in the US.

FX can even operate BCN-MAD-CGN, and pick-up freight along the way in MAD for delivery anywhere outside of Spain. What they can't do, however, is pick-up freight in BCN and drop it off in MAD, if final destination of the freight is in Spain. At least not by a US registered aircraft. But they are free to do so on a surface going movement and trucks are really handy for those kind of situations.

Imagining how a DHL owned, US based, operation similar to the FedEX/UPS setup in Europe would get off the ground, is an interesting thought. One has an inkling it would spark quite a noteworthy reaction.

Besides that the quoted website is just a bit inconsistent. Not in the least by prominently displaying an EAT B757, an airline which is now domiciled in Germany and paints nice German flags on their aeroplanes. The irony is, if you don't mind me saying, '''ing hilarious.

Last edited by SMT Member; 25th Sep 2012 at 00:43.
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Old 16th Oct 2012, 05:03   #10 (permalink)
 
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there's always more to the truth!

Another fact that website fails to note is the large number of European pilots and planes that DO fly intra-Europe for UPS. Star Airlines flies TEN B767 freighters intra-Europe under contract to UPS, and MNG also flies several routes for UPS.

I'm a pilot for UPS, and I do not fly, nor endorse cabotage. The bilateral agreements made between our individual governments determines the level of service I can provide on all the international routes I fly. Cabotage is not allowed under any of those agreements. That's why UPS has so many EU contractors supplementing our CGN operation.

I would not be surprised to find that a majority of the intra-Europe UPS volume IS flown by EU pilots. Plus, a LOT of international volume (everything from Africa, S America, Russia) comes to the EU via belly freight on passenger jets for distribution via our air and ground networks.
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Old 16th Oct 2012, 14:48   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:

...which would and should imply a SINGLE market.
It will be a single market when it has a central government,unified military, one seat in the United Nations and it fields one team at the Olympics. And I think all of that will be a good thing.

But until then CDG-FRA is comparable to ORD-YYZ, not ORD-JFK.

Last edited by 742; 16th Oct 2012 at 14:49.
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Old 16th Oct 2012, 18:39   #12 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
......Airlines of the European Union are also allowed to fly between the United States and non-EU countries ........
Really, we tried to do a route from inside the US to Mexico and were stopped from doing it.
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Old 18th Oct 2012, 01:57   #13 (permalink)
 
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European pilots and planes that DO fly intra-Europe for UPS

Quote:
Another fact that website fails to note is the large number of European pilots and planes that DO fly intra-Europe for UPS. Star Airlines flies TEN B767 freighters intra-Europe under contract to UPS, and MNG also flies several routes for UPS.
I have been told that the cargo airlines listed below fly volume in Europe for UPS, but there may be others as well. Additionally pretty much all pax airlines in Europe carry UPS volume as common carriage. UPS doesn't fly to Africa, but packages still make there....


Star Air Services

MNG Airlines MNG AIRLINES

Solinair Solinair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bluebird Cargo Bluebird Cargo - Bluebird Cargo

Farnair FARNAIR EUROPE - Cargo & Passenger AIRLINE

West Air Cargo Airlines / Home - West Atlantic

Atran ATRAN acquires its first Boeing 737, will operate for UPS | World Airline News

Last edited by edie; 18th Oct 2012 at 02:03.
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Old 18th Oct 2012, 02:15   #14 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Fact is, that US carriers operate within Europe without paying taxes and taking the jobs of european pilots.
It's not all about pilots. Don't forget that UPS is not a cargo airline but rather an integrator that happens to operate airplanes. According to this link UPS has 43,000 employees in Europe, who I assume all pay taxes. VAT from shipments is another chuck of revenue for European governments. I don't think UPS gets away with not paying for fuel taxes, overflight permits, landing fees and so on.

UPS Europe Region Fact Sheet - UPS Pressroom

Last edited by edie; 18th Oct 2012 at 02:24.
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Old 18th Oct 2012, 07:19   #15 (permalink)
 
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But the U.S. is a country. The EU isn't. Flying between countries within the EU is still an international flight despite being within a "Union".

Last edited by Flightmech; 18th Oct 2012 at 07:20.
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Old 18th Oct 2012, 08:35   #16 (permalink)
 
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Negative.
TheEuropean Common Economic Area, basically Shengen, is one area and any flight wihin that area can be considered as cabotage. This is currently being looked at and hopefully, UPS and FEDEX will be obliged to use European registered aircraft with EASA licence holders on these routes.
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Old 18th Oct 2012, 14:04   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:

Fact remains that EU operators do not have the same rights in the US as the
US operators have in Europe.
European operators have the same rights in North America as North American operators have in Europe.

If you want Europe to be a single country then you know what you have to do. But you can not have your cake and eat it too, anymore than Mexico/Canada/United States can pretend that NAFTA is something that it is not.
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Old 18th Oct 2012, 16:11   #18 (permalink)
 
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Will be corrected soon and then we will see then end of this travesty.
NO MORE UPS and FEDEX US aircraft and pilots, and a huge job opportunity for the thousants of European Pilots out of work.
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Old 18th Oct 2012, 16:13   #19 (permalink)
 
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Does Fedex or UPS carry cargo within the EU ?

For eg does Fedex carry cargo locally within EU say from CDG to MAD on US registered aircraft ?

Can someone send a package that originates in Paris and sent to Madrid on a US registered FEDEX or UPS Aircraft ?

Last edited by cyrilroy21; 18th Oct 2012 at 16:40.
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Old 18th Oct 2012, 16:45   #20 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Edie,

What exactly is your point? That those jobs (and taxes) would not exist if UPS and Fedex would use EU registered aircrafts? Fact remains that EU operators do not have the same rights in the US as the US operators have in Europe.
My point is only that UPS is an economic giant and that pilots are a very small piece of the puzzle. Only just over 1/2 % of UPS employees are pilots. Politicians look at the overall economic impact and if you look back at history, it is when UPS ordered 53 A-300s that European flying suddenly was expanded. I understand where you are coming from, but until a common European passport is issued for Europeans, I am pretty sure that US bilaterals are with individual European countries and not with the EU. Until that is changed, calling intra-Europe flying cabotage is incorrect and just emotional pandering.

Last edited by edie; 18th Oct 2012 at 17:19.
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