Freight DogsFinally a forum for those midnight prowler types who utilise the unglamorous parts of airports that many of us never get to see. Freight Dogs is for pilots and crew who operate mostly without SLF.
Been with AA for many years now flying the elegant ATP as a FO and love it!! But still waiting to upgraded,We all had the email about cutting back ect ect ect... is it time to move on ? No pay rises to cope with inflation and no hope of UPGRADES!! The mood within the camp at AA seems to be low amongst the pilots. AA needs to be careful and start looking after us pilots As I know of 5 pilots both captains and FOs that are waiting for contracts and start dates to come through the post for other carriers also many others going for interviews! I ask, was it just coincidence that a few pilots were off all on one day? I don't think so !!! Hopefully the start of this thread will bring all the rumours together and we will try and make out the truth.
Looking forward to reading other pilots comments from AA.
Hello Hopefullthinker fellow co-worker who ever you are
I have been hearing much the same I think AA will be very short of pilots in the near future as a few people are waiting for their new contracts to come in the post and many others going for interview's mostly out in the sandpit was what I had been told. We already need more captains. I think you should look else where as not much chance of upgrades, regarding the email on cutting back I think there are still recruiting for the cadet scheme and its more to do with the West Air side of the business as they just lost some contracts.
Same old Atlantic. Always short term thinkers. Senior management think, "lets hammer down pay, conditions and show them what real hard work is about." To them you are White Van Man. Unskilled labour, toddling around the sunny sky, just putting in bare minimum effort. Thinking that pilots and engineers have no grasp on commercial reality and the pressures that drive the company. The senior management were always detached from the reality of the business at the front line. They don't see that the heart of Atlantic, is engineers and pilots out there on the line, going the extra mile, giving the commercial types an unbeatable product to sell.
To be honest, leavers probably are going to end up just as fed up in the desert or wherever they go. Management will probably try the old trick of not bothering to replace them until the company is undercrewed to meltdown point. I hear that now they want to bring in the pay for type rating/will fly for food mob.
The sad thing is that by constantly trying to screw their people, Atlantic, will break down the will to go the extra mile and Atlantic, will be nothing. Who will this benefit?
Last edited by Atlantic_Conveyor; 19th May 2012 at 16:32.
Well said Atlantic_Conveyor Hit the nail on the head ! I know they have a pool of pilots ready to hand over 17k for the type rating if they read this DON'T DO IT!!! Look at it this way 17K for a Turboprop rating at a company which will give you 350 max hours a year if you lucky and we are the only company to operate the ATP so what other use outside AA does it have ? Now if you did not have to pay I would say take it !! but for a extra 7k you can go to ryanair and get a well worth TR money better spent along with better wages !! Also once you go down the TP route its hard to get yourself out into a jet job !! The minute I get the chance I am out of here and trust me I am trying everyday to move on like the rest of the pilots here, and I can see in the very near future AA will have a massive under crewing problem but I am looking forward to it as more hours for me Atlantic used to be well respected in the industry but how things change and its all down to management. as for pay look at pilot jobs network at all the other TP operators in the industry and you will see the pay difference salary wise its about 5kpa more ! ah well moan over least I have a job and did not have to pay for my TR unlike the poor chaps trying to get on now days.
We had more than a few come to TNT over the years, and they were consistently good. I remember one turgid winter's night an AA light twin, single crew, being chartered at the last minute to position some senior TNT crew from Stansted to Liege. The young guy's performance on that night in very high workload icing conditions earned him a job offer from the fleet Captain on landing! AA have always been a good trainer of pilots, especially in the practical experience side of things.
Sounds like the final payout for the 4 bosses is finally due! The merger with WAS/WAL/AAL was supposed to pay out a fast amount of money to them after 3 years when profitable!! The management pilots in AAL only care about there own shizzle and still think its there little flying club! @hopefullthinker .. some brown nosing before the test and your roots from the north will help you ;-) Hope we still get our holidays this year!!
That is all it's about management getting paid ! It will be quite funny really as AA are in the very near future are going to be under-crewed so they need to have some forward thinking if the rumours of new routes and planes are true, As for Qatar there is already one captain off to them excellent chap will be sadly missed but who can blame him we are all treated like mushrooms here 'kept in the dark and fed on shit' I know of 2 more pilot's that have been offered jobs at Qatar and are waiting for contracts to come through the post and 2 have been for interviews and one has a interview soon. As for you Electra pilots that might be coming onto the ATP WE DON'T WANT YOU BOYS on our inferior twin prop ! @ hopefullthinker if these boy's come over then kiss good bye to your possible command upgrade. As for the quality of AA pilots I think it will go down hill because they have started this pay to fly rubbish and we all know what kind of pilot that attracts, the last bunch of pilots we recruited one apparently failed the type rating ? whats that say !! and god knows what kind of pilots we have in the holding pool ready with their 17k
Last edited by viperstings; 4th Jun 2012 at 23:10.
I'm sure the Electra boys don't want to get near the ATP and I'm pretty sure that management don't want them on it. Do you think they have any chance of retaining their current salaries? No I'm sure that another points based redundancy scheme has been worked out already.
Any news on the latest pay cut then? How have they dressed it up this time? Markets tough? It's really a pay rise because there are great deals on 42" plasma TV's and you can go one way to Lagos for just two hundred quid with Dana Air? If you don't like it leave? Or have they even bothered to tell you? In my time, they used all those excuses and more.
Yes, the management care only about themselves. Lets's face it, one of them got his hands on the wonga to but AA, by marrying into money which gives you an idea of how ruthless he is.
Problem is that when contracts are renewed with major customers, selling your pay and conditions down the line is the first thing that AA management will do. There will be some kind of business lunch and the customer, (probably making billions) will demand cost reductions and insist that 99.879878776 on time performance is just not good enough. First thing AA management do is roll over, offer them a discount based on not giving you a pay rise. Next thing is a letter stating another pay cut this year (in management speak) and you need to pull your fingers out and start improving that OTP. But hey, it's you getting the pay cut and flying tech aircraft around because they don't want to invest in parts and engineers. Managements doing just fine!
Last edited by Atlantic_Conveyor; 5th Jun 2012 at 16:20.
-Would you prefer to see the Leccy pilots being made redundant than to be retrained on the ATP?
-Do you resent flying with the ex-Electra ATP Captains or are they OK?
'we are all treated like mushrooms here 'kept in the dark and fed on shit' - It reads like you think you have the right to be kept informed of management decisions. Do you think you do? Some undoubtedly have confidentiality clauses and most nothing to do with you as it's not your train set.
Would you prefer to see the Leccy pilots being made redundant than to be retrained on the ATP?
Put yourself in the shoes of the ATP FO's that want to be upgraded. Would you prefer it if the Leccy pilots get the sack and you get the upgrade. Or would it be better if Mr Leccy Skipper gets transferred and you have to listen to him going on about the good old days of Liege, whilst he can still barely afford to pay his rent. I think a lot of FO's WOULD deeply resent you, if you transferred.
The good news is that it's not the ATP, guys that decide who goes when the time comes, but management. Oh no, that isn't good news at all!
BTW I work for a large operation that does a far better job of keeping it's employees informed than AA did. They want us to be motivated and part of the success of the business, not bitter and alienated. Our management do it, not because they are nice but because it is good business sense to do so.
Last edited by Atlantic_Conveyor; 5th Jun 2012 at 17:56.
Well I won't disagree that the FOs salary (on both fleets) is low.
But from a personal point of view I would not wish redunancy and the process that goes with it upon anyone, so can not agree with you.
And though I'm not on the ATP, I certainly was not aware of any negative feelings towards the ex-Electra guys that transferred from L188 FOs to ATP Captains during the latter part of 2008, who may have stopped ATP FOs being upgraded. In fact, to the best of my knowledge, they are highly regarded, and personally, I enjoy catching up with them down route.
@argon18 No don't wish the Electra chaps to be made redundant and I like the chaps but the point I was trying to make is (badly I agree,sorry !) That the pilots on the ATP who are awaiting upgrades have worked there butts off flying and working more hours that the Electra counter parts and for less pay.Now possibly some Electra pilots will be retrained on the ATP and some as captains. I feel they should go to the bottom of the pecking order and start from scratch all as new fo's being a new type and all and be paid as an ATP pilot and not as a Electra pilot as I know for sure that the Electra pilots who come online on the ATP will remain on Electra pay but why ?? Do they really think they are better than the captains on the ATP?? same goes for the FOs why should they be paid more than there ATP counter parts ?? It happens in AA!! So really management are to blame for all the ill feeling in the company by creating situations were you have ex Electra capt's and fo's retraining on the ATP and retaining Electra salary how do you think that makes us ATP guys feel?? How would you feel if it was you ??
Last edited by viperstings; 5th Jun 2012 at 23:24.
Atlantic conveyor, have you considered just concentrating on your job in your 'large operator', it may help ease the pain and bitterness you display each time you post on this forum. Without AA you wouldn't be in your job with your 'large operator'. I doubt this idea has entered into your 'large operator' mind set tho, has it? BTW, pretty repugnant username considering the 12 British servicemen that lost their lives on this vessel.AA is by and large an OK place to be, with a good set of people, doing their best in a difficult Market. Unfortunately resentments grow when movement stagnates. The sooner the Market opens up the better for all......
I would suggest that you try to get all UP to the Electra rate, rather DOWN to the ATP rate? Looooong time since I was involved at AAG, and sad to see this happening. How about unity of pilots vs management? Infighting is never pretty (and this is very public). Good luck all.