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Freight Dogs Finally a forum for those midnight prowler types who utilise the unglamorous parts of airports that many of us never get to see. Freight Dogs is for pilots and crew who operate mostly without SLF.


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Old 16th Sep 2011, 21:02   #1 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Cargolux NOT taking delivery of new 747-8

Not as one would have expected a launch delivery to go??
The Finance Officer to leave Cargolux before year end?

From Flightglobal;
Cargolux will not take 747-8F delivery over contract wrangle
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Old 16th Sep 2011, 21:39   #2 (permalink)
 
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Whoops that's pretty short notice... seems some is playing poker.
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Old 16th Sep 2011, 23:21   #3 (permalink)


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suggest you dont dicuss cargolux internal affairs on line
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Old 16th Sep 2011, 23:58   #4 (permalink)
 
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atakacs wrote:

Quote:
Whoops that's pretty short notice... seems some one is playing poker.
Cargolux is not playing poker. Anyone who knows CV, anyone who knows their historical loyalty to Boeing and their need for an aircraft that delivers the performance that Boeing promised for the -8F if they are to survive and prosper in competition with B777F operators, will realize that this must be a very serious issue indeed.

OEW above target + SFC above target = range/payload shortfall that CV cannot live with - end of story.

Clearly the guys in Seattle have still not convinced CV that they have in place a strategy that will put the unit costs of this aircraft where they need to be.
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 01:18   #5 (permalink)
 
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@smack1: What are you talking about? It's a news story.
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 07:02   #6 (permalink)
 
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Launching a 4 engine freighter when fuel is only going in one direction was pretty stupid of Boeing. Not to mention the cockpit is still 30-year old technology with an electronic checklist.

This aircraft should take advantage of composite structures developed in the 787 and it should also have the same cockpit. How could they launch a new product that has technology that is 3 generations old?

I'm all for tweaking a good design to make it better. But there needs to be a step up to bring that product into the future.
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 07:35   #7 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
suggest you dont dicuss cargolux internal affairs on line
I'm sorry? Who are you, the Stasi?

If it's all over Flightglobal, it's not an "internal" affair any more. Just sayin'.
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 07:53   #8 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smack1
suggest you dont dicuss cargolux internal affairs on line
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

You've got a nerve old bean. Are you going to ring Flight International and slap their wrists?

Anyhoo, what's surprising about this? My spies tell me that things aren't all rosey in Luxembourg and haven't been for a while. This just helps confirm what I've heard.
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 09:47   #9 (permalink)
 
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That is short notice especially as the first was due to be delivered on Monday and the second on Wednesday
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 10:05   #10 (permalink)
 
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Lightbulb Hydrogen Alpha . . .

Quote:
"...delivers the performance that Boeing promised for the -8F if they are to survive and prosper in competition with B777F operators..."
Huh...?

The B772F vs B748 is not a contest.
Two completely different animals in respect to:
1. Nose door for outsize cargo;
2. Volume;
3. Payload.
...unless you wish to reinvent a comparison between apples and oranges.
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 10:08   #11 (permalink)
 
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Considering that the performance guarantee is only valid until the aircraft leaves Seattle, then it makes sense to require this issue to be resolved prior to delivery.
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 10:29   #12 (permalink)
 
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Carolux Fleet

Well its all interesting news . . .I have personally worked with Cargolux out of Johannesburg, as operations. Its a great Company, probably with its usual issues like any other. The people planning the future of the company will surely know what they are doing. There are always ups and downs. . .They are growing all the time.
Yes indeed the Boeing company needs to apply new technology to the B747 fleet. I have been and always will be a B747 and Boeing fan . . .The cockpit is one of the most noisy. And I sure hope they sort out the ventilation issues that downed 2 planes thanks to Lithium batteries igniting. One cannot compare a B777 and B747 . . They are in 2 totally separate categories . . .Lets hope it all works out . . .cheers
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 11:10   #13 (permalink)
 
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Whilst I sincerely have the utmost respect for our Mods and the difficult job they do, what this is doing in Spotters Corner baffles me even more!
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 11:16   #14 (permalink)
 
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Thinking the same....Surely Freight Dogs would be more appropriate Quite a big news story.
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 11:49   #15 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Hydrogen Alpha . . .

Quote:
"...delivers the performance that Boeing promised for the -8F if they are to survive and prosper in competition with B777F operators..."
Huh...?

The B772F vs B748 is not a contest.
Two completely different animals in respect to:
1. Nose door for outsize cargo;
2. Volume;
3. Payload.
...unless you wish to reinvent a comparison between apples and oranges.
Glueball,

Until you have learned to comprehend the competitive dynamics of the air cargo industry, you will be unable to understand why your comment is total, utter rubbish.

Suffice it to say that;

1) nose loading is an irrelevance for the vast majority of freighter operators. The nose door often remains closed during turnarounds on those aircraft that have it, while the B747-400BCF has been a success without it.

2) The fact that the B747-8F offers 29% more volume and 26% more structural payload (but 10% less max payload/range) than the B777F does NOT render them "two completely different animals".

Every single operator that has evaluated the B747-8F will have compared it with the B777F - and many have gone on record as having done so - and the respective order books show which type has come out of that evaluation on top.

Simple fact, acknowledged by Boeing: Without the B777F, the B747-8F would have many, many more orders than it has today.

Until you learn to comprehend that the inherent directional imbalance in many major airfreight markets gives the advantage to the lower-capacity, fuel-efficient B777F (i.e. no good if the B747-8F has lower unit costs if it flies out to China with only 50 tonnes on board - the B777F will beat it on a round-trip basis every time), you will not comprehend why the major integrators and freighter operators love the B777F and are unimpressed by the B747-8F.

Time to learn, Glueball. Only then will you comprehend.

Last edited by Hydrogen Alpha; 17th Sep 2011 at 12:27. Reason: To remove unintentional Bold
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 11:52   #16 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Problems surrounding the delivery of a brand new Boeing aircraft to the launch customer is not considered major news and gets moved to "spotters corner?"
Probably someone's hoping that this will peter out in a non-related backwater
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 12:37   #17 (permalink)
 
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Surely not a thread for spotter's corner?

I can only add my voice to that of several others. I am not a "spotter", and I never have been, but I do work professionally in the air transport industry. IMHO this is a major story, with the potential to impact upon the future growth and prosperity of Cargolux, which has "bet the company" on the B747-8F.

There's a lot at stake here, guys. There may not be an easy fix, and even if Boeing thows money at CV, they will - as of yesterday - have the same problem with every other customer of the plane.

So this is one big story for Spotter's Corner........
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 13:18   #18 (permalink)
 
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Hahaha, what a complete farce to see this major news tucked away in some obscure "spotters corner" of PPRuNe!
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 14:06   #19 (permalink)


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This is one of the more bizarre decisions I have seen on PPRuNe, this NEWS story only concerns one of Boeing Commercial Aircraft's major projects and one of Europes biggest freight operators so obviously it belongs in Spotters Corner

Rumours and News should be renamed Crashing and Smoke in the Cockpit Reports.
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Old 17th Sep 2011, 16:45   #20 (permalink)
 
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Sorry Glueball, but there is direct comparison between the 747-8 and 772LRF

I ask you, what has become the staple of passenger long-haul operations? The 777-300ER. It has taken over all the roles of the 747-400. Some of the biggest operators of 747-400 (JAL, ANA, CPA, BAW, SIA) have slowly replaced or are in the process of replacing their fleets with the 773ER.

Even though you would say that they are apples and oranges, it is impossible to ignore the efficiency of the 777 coupled with the capacity of the -300 fuselage. This will only propagate to the freighter market given time.

The only reason the 777LRF is not selling really big is that it is friggin expensive. But give it time, and you will soon see most 4 engine freighters replaced by the big twin.
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