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Freight Dogs Finally a forum for those midnight prowler types who utilise the unglamorous parts of airports that many of us never get to see. Freight Dogs is for pilots and crew who operate mostly without SLF.

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Old 5th Aug 2008, 12:50   #101 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Hi,

Sim in Seattle is working brilliantly due to a very talented ex-Raf engineer that has pulled her back from the brink, I was there recently and she never fell over once. Is now owned and operated by Atlantic Airlines.
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Old 5th Aug 2008, 14:08   #102 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Fuel costs call the tune.
Now, having said this, the Electra might yet get a second chance, if the corrosion and wiring issues can be overcome.
Not sure yet, still under intense discussion.
Lockheed is opening a mod line in Marietta to re-wing a number of P-3's. Maybe the Electra's could get in line!
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Old 8th Aug 2008, 19:58   #103 (permalink)
 
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My understanding is that the noise regs will ground the electra in Europe in 2012. Is this the same in USA?
I know that Atlantic Airlines are considering replacements for this eventuality.
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Old 9th Aug 2008, 21:14   #104 (permalink)
 
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My understanding is that the noise regs will ground the electra in Europe in 2012. Is this the same in USA?
I know that Atlantic Airlines are considering replacements for this eventuality.


Since when is a L-188 noisey?
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Old 9th Aug 2008, 23:39   #105 (permalink)
 
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The Electra is Stage III, N'est ce pas?

Atlantic are considering replacing them with ATPs, but I understood that was due to the 8 tonne max payload of the twin engine ATPs making better commercial sense in the present nightfreight climate than the 14 tonne 4 engine L-188.
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Old 16th Aug 2008, 13:10   #106 (permalink)
 
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This link is from a Canadian web site which shows an interesting separation of the upper wing and also some good shots of the aircarft used on icebreaker patrol in the days when aviation was a lot more enjoyable.

Regards

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Old 16th Aug 2008, 13:12   #107 (permalink)
 
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I guess it would be a good idea to post the link.



AVCANADA • View topic - What happens when a P-3 (CP-140) Stalls and pulls 7g's?

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Old 16th Aug 2008, 14:11   #108 (permalink)

 
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You'd wonder about the veracity of the rest of the report when 'they' can't recognise a left wing from a right wing.
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Old 17th Aug 2008, 02:14   #109 (permalink)
 
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You'd wonder about the veracity of the rest of the report when 'they' can't recognise a left wing from a right wing.
And they have no idea what a wing spar is?
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 13:02   #110 (permalink)
 
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I was an Electra co-pilot for Eastern Air Lines in 1966-1967. It was certified in the US for a three-man crew. The Electra Allison 501 turboshaft engines are a constant rpm engine. They had two speeds, one for flight and a 30% lower one for ground operation for noise reduction. The airplane had 115 VAC 400 cycle power with four direct coupled generators. Only one engine generator had a two speed gearbox to provide power for the whole aircraft on the ground at the ground RPM. Their were at least four different AC buses. Before takeoff, the three non-gearbox engines were shifted to flight RPM and the generators came on line and the flight engineer shifted the AC buses to these engines. Then the forth engine was shifted up. The reverse happened after landing. The FE was extremely busy. Everything on the aircraft was AC including the hydraulic pumps for the flight controls. Eastern had an accident at BOS where thousands of starlings were ingested right after takeoff and caused all the engines to surge in RPM and the AC generators all started tripping on and off the line due to automatic underfrequency protection. Due to loss of hydraulic power, the flight controls "froze" and the aircraft crashed. The forward cockpit floor under the pilots was raised a few inches and the rear edge of that had at least three flip up doors that protected the hydraulic bypass handles that allowed manual flight control. The FE sitting in the center position for TO was supposed to lift the doors and pull the handles if necessary. The bird ingestion happened too fast for that to occur. After that accident, on every TO, the doors were lifted to the open position to allow faster access to the bypass handles. I cannot imagine operation of this aircraft with a two-man crew. If the lower-speed ground RPM was abandoned, that would reduce a lot of the routine work but the FE panel was huge with all the hydraulic and electrical system controls.
Once the nacelle and wing was beefed up to prevent the "whirl mode" cause of three inflight break-ups, the aircraft was safe and reliable and a dream to fly. I think they seldom changed the brakes because of the massive reverse thrust available.

Last edited by lolder; 21st Dec 2016 at 13:16.
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Old 22nd Dec 2016, 03:11   #111 (permalink)
 
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We taxied onto the departure runway at EWR one morning when everything was covered in ice due to an overnight freezing rain. You could taxi a L 188 with prop pitch control even without any effective nose wheel steering or braking effectiveness. As we sat in the center of the runway, the FE shifted the engines up to the flight RPM. Even at flat pitch, the airplane started to slowly slide sideways off to the left side of the runway. the Captain advanced the power levers a tad and the aircraft regained rolling traction and moved slowly directly forward. He said, "Tell them were cancelling and going back to the gate. We don't get paid to do this". I had never realized most runways are designed 1 1/2 feet higher in the middle.
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Old 24th Dec 2016, 00:49   #112 (permalink)
 
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I am also an EAL alumnae, '84-'89, March 6th to be exact. I'm surprised Lockheed didn't have at least some hydraulics powered by engine driven pumps. The BOSFO had a number of ex-Electra pilots who loved it to a man, especially during slowdowns and flying the Shuttle VFR. Did the Electra have "system" trips and where to, if they did.

GF
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Old 24th Dec 2016, 04:15   #113 (permalink)
 
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They flew all over but were being replaced by the jets. In '66-'67 they still flew over much of the EAL system. I had a turnaround JFK BAL BDA BAL JFK. It paid about 8 actual hours. The leg to Bermuda was about 2:30. We filled for FL 230 and it took forever to get that high. One winter night we flew VFR from DCA to LGA at 5500'. Visibility was unlimited. I think the barber pole was 320 kts and we were at it. The ground speed with a tailwind was 400 mph. The ground really rolled by fast. That was before the 250 kt limit. The Allison division of Rolls Royce is still making the engines for the C-130J but it is now a two spool engine. All the previous Electra, Orion and Hercules were of the related single spool 501 type. It was a mechanical relay airplane. You didn't write anything up until after the first landing jarred things loose. Any pilot could get in it, have somebody start it for him which was push button anyway and go out and fly it with little training required. The amount of starlings ingested in the BOS crash was hundreds and was a one in a billion event.
The Electra had 4, 60 KVA 115 VAC, 400 cycle generators. It had air-cycle HVAC machines and a freon system for extra on the ground cooling. The side panel in the walls of the cabin were electrically heated so the person sitting next to the window didn't get cold. It was probably high maintenance by today's standards. Since there are so many C-130's and P 3's still flying, engine and prop overhaul is still available. Airframe and systems parts are another story as we've seen from the beginning of this thread about the corrosion.
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Old 24th Dec 2016, 10:12   #114 (permalink)
 
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A few L-188's are still flying in Canada and I get a chance to work on some once in a while. Still my favorite aircraft to fly (FE). Lots of parts still available if you know who has them (I do).
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Old 24th Dec 2016, 13:49   #115 (permalink)
 
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I've seen the "Ice Pilots" info about Buffalo Air L-188's and was not impressed. To start one they had a turbine APU strapped in the rear cargo compartment and ran a starter hose from it to the external air pressure connector. They had to fiddle with the APU to get it started.
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Old 24th Dec 2016, 15:43   #116 (permalink)
 
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iolder,

What did they use for nav equipment to BDA?

GF
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Old 24th Dec 2016, 17:36   #117 (permalink)
 
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A half hour before departure at JFK, a mechanic showed up with a suitcase sized portable manual Loran C receiver and strapped it into the Captains flight bag space to his left and connected it by a 28VDC plug and an antenna connector. As co-pilot, I had to check it out which I did. The month I flew the trip I had a different captain each trip. None of them knew how to work the manual loran. Of course we had VOR-DME for about 350 nm of the 700 nm leg. The Captains would fiddle with it half an hour and give up. I could usually cajole them into letting me sit in the seat and "practice" getting a fix. You couldn't really miss Bermuda and there was no other airway traffic so if you got off course 50 miles it didn't matter. In practice we were never off more than about 5. This was when Eastern had applied to the CAB to fly to the Pacific.
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Old 24th Dec 2016, 17:48   #118 (permalink)
 
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We also had a nicer permanently installed loran C in the L-1011's though still manual. We used it on JFK SJU. The flights frequently flew through the dusk hours when the loran C transitioned from ground wave to sky wave. If you matched a skywave slave signal to a groundwave base signal or vice-versa your position error was tens of miles. You had to take fixes every fifteen minutes or so to make sure you were on the right waves. Most of the Captains didn't care because of you take off from JFK and head 180 you arrive in SJU. They'd done that in DC 4s, 6s, 7s and Connies for years. You just hold that 180 heading. The westerlies that push you off course are cancelled by the trades that push you back. They usually equaled out. There was a rumor from the '40's that a JFK SJU DC-4 got lost and had to fly back NORTH an hour to get to SJU.
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Old 24th Dec 2016, 20:37   #119 (permalink)
 
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As a Tech Service at EAL I flew a lot of jump seat. I remember riding a DC-8-61 out of SJU to JFK. No need for Loran, we just followed the bright anti-collision light on the Pan Am B747 with its INS. It was much higher than we were and easy to follow.
The L-188 Electras were in system use in 1967 for I had to go up and run a maintenance FAM course in Cleveland and Montreal for EXPO.
After that last hurrah, the Electras were only on the EAL Shuttle, DC_to LGA or EWR and LGA or EWR to BOS. Toward the end of their service at EAL they booked an L-188 charter from LGA (I think) to SJU and then one of the islands. First problem was to find an aircraft that still had the HF wire aerials installed. Second was to install the sets and make them work. The third was to find one of the old plug-in LORAN sets and install it and get it to work. Aircraft was spruced up inside, rafts and emergency gear restocked, galley equipment reactivated (Shuttle had no food service) and the shuttle ticket carts removed.
I put my most L-188 experienced Tech Supervisor on board the charter as we knew SJU hadn't seen an Electra in many years. Off it went. As he reported the aircraft did fine the first hour. It had not flown for more than an hour for years being in Shuttle service and it began to wonder why it wasn't being landed. There were little problems at first. The LORAN set was to the left of the Captain and sat on its mount. It required my Supervisor to force it down against the disused contacts and hold it there in order to operate. He got a shock if he let up on the pressure. As it flew on, various instruments began to give up. The engines however performed perfectly. As a grand finale the potable water tank in the ceiling between the lavs split open a seam and dumped its water in the aisle. EAL in SJU had to charter a Caribair aircraft to finish the flight down to one of the islands.
Regarding the horrific pictures of the sprung wing planks, it happened before but on the ground. During a structural repair inside the wing fuel tanks, paper cups were used to hold the fasteners. In accordance with Murphy's Law one was left inside. On refueling it inevitably found the fuel vent and blocked it. With the huge area, even a small differential pressure builds an enormous force and it sprung a plank loose. The aircraft was repaired but that was many, many years ago when it was in regular service. Somehow I doubt this one will be.
The Electra with all its quirky air-conditioning systems (Freon, air-cycle and electric heat), electrical system full of relays performing bus switching, electrically driven hydraulic system and stiff planked wings was a challenge to maintenance. I did love the engines though.
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Old 25th Dec 2016, 03:48   #120 (permalink)
 
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In late 1977, EAL worked out a deal to put an Omega receiver on the L-1011's. They paid $25K each when INS's were going for $100K. I forget who made them ( edit- Collins LRN-70 or 80? ). There was an operating book put in the FE's desk that was usually missing. You had to initialize your position on them at least 15 minutes before moving the aircraft. If you didn't do that, they didn't work right. You could turn them on at least 1/2 hour before moving and they went through a long automatic initialization and figured out where they were on their own. They didn't drift with time as INS's did as they operated as a VLF hyperbolic navigation system using 8 world wide stations. They were accurate to a couple of miles. They were never required for dispatch as the manual loran C's were still installed.

Last edited by lolder; 25th Dec 2016 at 04:07.
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