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Freight Dogs Finally a forum for those midnight prowler types who utilise the unglamorous parts of airports that many of us never get to see. Freight Dogs is for pilots and crew who operate mostly without SLF.

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Old 16th Jul 2008, 14:58   #21 (permalink)

 
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Aeroguy757777, Will your third and subsequent ( ) posts make such edifying reading?
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Old 16th Jul 2008, 15:32   #22 (permalink)
 
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Wouldn't say it was suicide to fly an Electra with 2 crew, they can always take a flask of tea with them.
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Old 16th Jul 2008, 17:18   #23 (permalink)
 
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electras

Quite often seen at Stansted Essex UK, on the alphas cargo stands, used for mail runs, great planes they sometimes need an airstart to get them going.
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Old 16th Jul 2008, 18:42   #24 (permalink)
 
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Well, what a machine! I spent 7 years flying around Europe in it- it's the best handling machine I've flown so far.
To chuck in my two pence worth - our company used 100lbs per minute in the climb. In the cruise, assuming a max take-off weight of 116000lbs, fuel burn started at 5000lbs per hour decreasing by approx 200lbs per each flying hour thereafter with an endurance of up to 9 hours.

Max payload obviously depended on the dry operating weight of each airframe but max payload is generally considered to be 32000lbs (14.5 metric tons)

Regarding the 2 crew operation - Lockheed originally designed it to be operated by 2 crew, ie captain and first/second officer, but the unions in the USA at the time wouldn't allow it so Lockheed had to give the FEs a job hence a 3 crew op.

Airspray Canada were the first company to operate the Electra with 2 crew as the Canadian CAA were the first to approve it. Based on that, the UK CAA also allowed it to happen. The modification is simply to duplicate a couple of circuit breakers near the captain so that he can operate them in accordance with any abnormal check-list that requires it.

From my experience, having an FE in the middle seat can cause problems with CRM issues.
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Old 16th Jul 2008, 20:13   #25 (permalink)

 
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From my experience, having an FE in the middle seat can cause problems with CRM issues.
Aeroguy757777, you're on!
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Old 16th Jul 2008, 20:31   #26 (permalink)
 
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CRM issues with a FE, you need to tell your boss to hire some proper FE's. They have saved and will save many pilots lives. Most pilots have a very limited knowledge about the aircraft they're flying and a good FE will keep them out of trouble.
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Old 16th Jul 2008, 20:50   #27 (permalink)
 
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2 crew Electras?

Here we go again......

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Old 16th Jul 2008, 21:44   #28 (permalink)
 
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3 Man crew

My experience of 3 man crew ops and CRM issues is true.

Nobody wants to be first to take a piss because he KNOWS the other two are going to talk about him!

Single pilot ops is best - the skipper flying with all his mates
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Old 16th Jul 2008, 21:53   #29 (permalink)
 
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Two crew Electra's are just fine 98% of the time but when the work load is high and a technical problem rears it's head you are going to need the engineer or things will get forgotten. As we all know that is when accidents happen.

It is interesting that two of the three UK opperators did not take away the flight engineer when they could have saved a lot of money by doing so, I can only conclude that they had flight safety reasons for doing so.

As to the comment about the FE being the sorce of CRM problems, this is one of the strangest comments that I have seen on these pages over the years, I would love to see the hard evidence to back up that statement.
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Old 16th Jul 2008, 23:11   #30 (permalink)
 
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This really is just raking up old previously discussed issues - search back for the Electra at Cologne thread for the full debate. Suffice to say, the Canadians allowed 2 crew operation first in arguably more challenging flying situations that Atlantic's. The FAA, UK CAA and Lockheed were all involved in the planning and implementation of Atlantic's 2 crew STC.

There is always an argument for the 3rd person on the flightdeck - however in this case I can say with experience that in my opinion, 2 crew worked well - anyone who hasnt experienced it just has to understand that. I experienced both 3 and 2 crew and so I believe I am qualified to comment on the matter.
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Old 16th Jul 2008, 23:12   #31 (permalink)
 
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A and C,

The only remaining UK operator of the Electra is the one that has gone two crew, also think that you will find most of the serious incidents were with the 3 crew Electras operators.
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Old 17th Jul 2008, 00:14   #32 (permalink)
 
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"JB" I think that is because the 3 crew operaters were around much longer than the two crew and the only operation going on at this time is really the two op.
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Old 17th Jul 2008, 11:37   #33 (permalink)
 
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Sid starz

I can see your reasons for thinking that the 2 crew Electra worked well and respect your reasoned veiws, however for me the workload when things go wrong is just that little bit too high for 2 crew. I suspect it depends on how you do the risk assesment.

JennyB

Your points are not very well put and seem to be based on a rather "rose tinted" veiw of the 2 crew Electra, I suspect if you had been painted into a corner by circumstance when flying the Electra you mght be taking a more balanced veiw of the work load reqired to keep the operation safe (Sid Stars is and he seems better placed than most to comment).

I remember a vey old BA 707 skipper telling me that no on needs a Flight Engineer when things are going well but you can,t do without one when the sh1t hitts the fan!
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Old 17th Jul 2008, 13:21   #34 (permalink)
 
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I could be wrong but I heard somewhere what Electra was originally certified with 3-man cockpit purely due to an old FAA rule requiring FE on aircraft over 80000 lbs MTOW?
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Old 17th Jul 2008, 14:08   #35 (permalink)
 
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Quote CargoOne
Quote:
I could be wrong but I heard somewhere what Electra was originally certified with 3-man cockpit purely due to an old FAA rule requiring FE on aircraft over 80000 lbs MTOW?
Not without good reason apparently.
Be lucky
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Old 17th Jul 2008, 14:36   #36 (permalink)
 
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I believe that many airlines in the (a long time ago) US were operating the 737 and DC9 with FE's due to union scope clauses. How you have an FE in one of these planes is a mystery.

So, who's trying to sell their Electra's then? I would have thought the old Zantop planes had been standing for too long to be viable?
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Old 17th Jul 2008, 14:43   #37 (permalink)
 
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Whilst the debate `rages` about the cockpit area I would be keen to hear views from those who loaded the aircraft. Ive seen them with cargo doors fore of the wing and aft of the wing and some with both doors. Any good reasoning for this?
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Old 17th Jul 2008, 14:44   #38 (permalink)
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Unhappy Curious

I don't think there are many left other than the six at Atlantic. Zantop or whomever is chopping up all the birds in Yipsilanti Michigan I think. The Reeve birds are all, well except one, at Air Spray. The simulator in Seattle is still being used by Atlantic. I do not think there are any pax airplanes left as I think Air Spray used them for parts. The combi at Coventry has no book/manuals for it so it sits idle. I would love to fly her but it will be tough.
 
Old 17th Jul 2008, 17:36   #39 (permalink)
 
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YouTube - Lockheed Electra start up

For those of you that need to forget the 2/3 crew bullshit and remember how aviation used to sound
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Old 17th Jul 2008, 19:33   #40 (permalink)
 
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Why are the engines upside down?
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