Air Atlanta Icelandic

[Ganbare]

10 and 5 things...

AAI Ops: I too was former Air Atlanta and ended up quitting, not fired. I didn't quit for another flying job but rather a non-flying job, a testament to how much I didn't want to be there. I too tried to change things for the better in the hopes I could keep flying there, at least until I was recalled at my airline. After 18 months of things not only not changing for the better at AAI but actually getting worse I declined yet another base move at your behest and opted to pursue another line of work. I won't give my name in open forum here but you can contact your friend Jerry O' Sullivan, he knows my handle and real name. He confronted me after I posted a negative remark on the forum accusing him of lying, I answered him with my real name.

5 Good Things:

1) Breakfast is paid for by Air Atlanta when staying in a hotel

2) Training and PCs are straightforward with no BS. I realize this is a double edge sword however and some pilots who otherwise would not pass the training end up getting through. But overall the training is fine.

3) I'm still in contact with some of the friends I made while at Air Atlanta, good friends. We were all in the same sinking boat together which made the friendships that much tighter.

4) Air Atlanta paid for travel between base and home. Granted it was like pulling teeth getting the "vacation" in the first place, but once the decision was made to grant vacation Air Atlanta took care of the expenses.

5) At the time it was very difficult and I didn't want to be there but flying with Air Atlanta allowed me to see areas of the world I would never have otherwise been able to go to. Now keep in mind I kept my head pretty low in some of these places as most of the natives wanted to kill Westerners but nevertheless it was good flying experience. The Excell flying out of the UK to the Caribbean was especially rewarding.

10 Bad Things:

1) AAI needs to instruct it's contact company Mountain High...or Direct Personel...or whatever it's called these days to tell the truth when hiring pilots. I originally took the job with certain things in mind and would NEVER have taken the jobs had I known certain things were the actuallity (see items 2-10 below). If you guys were truthful from the get-go you would almost certainly have fewer takers but the pilots who did sign a contact would go in with their eyes open rather than being blindsided by some of the shenanigans taking place. In other words, Stop Lying To Prospective Pilots About The Realities Of The Job!!

2) The time away from home is quite simply too long. Even the worst companies in the US keep their crews on the road only up to a month or so. Before I left AAI I managed to get a new contract stating I would be guaranteed 2 weeks off in a row at home for every 6 weeks I was on the road. But this was after a year of never really knowing when I would get home. The only way to get time at home was to simply say, "I'm going home". Every request for "vacation" was turned down. Requests didn't work, only statements of what I was going to do.

3) Stop calling it "Vacation". It's time at home not vacation. When you don't pay for the time it's not vacation. Reference item #2, whenever I had too much and said I was going home it was off salary. The end result was I couldn't go home but once every 2 months or so or the salary I did receive wasn't enough to pay the bills. It's hard thing to have to choose between seeing your family or staying in some dirty smelly nasty place in the world to pay for said family.

4) In general you guys have to realize that the pilots are in fact human beings who have lives and families. The minute you realize that, things instantly improve for the pilots who remain at Air Atlanta. If you cared as much about the real people working for you as you do the cash you recieve from your clients the moral would improve and pilots would stay certainly longer and maybe for good. Even if you as a human being don't actually mean it, if your policies indicated you cared about us we would stay there. Stop treating pilots like one of the airplanes and start treating them as real people with lives and families!!

5) The contract companies who hire for you need to be under tighter control. They need accountability for their actions. When the office screws up your pay and then shrugs and says, "There's nothing I can do" how about some accountability? My pay was massively messed up on at least 3 occasions. Each time Air Atlanta pointed the finger at JO's office. Each time JO's office practicaly laughed in my face at my plight. Don't you dare shrug your shoulders and say it's their fault. You know as well as I do that that company is AAI's company.

6) When ordering a pilot to change bases, how about paying for his excess baggage? You know we are packed for months on the road, when you then buy us a ticket on the cheapest carrier to move us to the new base we are often hit with big charges for our bags. If the base move is at your behest it's only fair to pay for our stuff as it's you who mandate being on the road for such a long time in the first place.

7) A greater ratio of time home/time at work. Again reference item #4, unless you want to pay for our entire families to come to where we are in the world there needs to be more time at home. This item might be better in the #1 position as it was always of prime import to myself. I'd have been much much more willing to go to these places for AAI had I had recent time with the family. The recently submitted post by you of a proposal by the company for more time at home is still a joke. Why can't you get it through your head that only 1 week at home after 6 weeks on the road is simply not enough? It's not enough, it's not enough, it's not enough! As soon as you realize that fact WILL NOT CHANGE, then and only then can AAI start bringing realistic proposals to the pilots. So you have to pay more (paying for "vacation" time for example"? You'll be more inline with other companies out there.

8) Your contract company needs to be a little more selective about who it hires. Certainly I flew with some top-notch pilots, but at the same time I flew with some guys who had no business whatsoever being in the cockpit. If you actually hire some of these 1,000 hour pilots that have been sniffing around this message board (Oh God, have you already?) you are setting yourself up for big problems. I was hired via an email, no interview, no sim check, just an email with travel arrangements to LHR. You can't tell me that's the way to hire quality pilots.

9) Rosters are not worth the paper they are printed on. I realize ACMI is a business where it helps to be ready for the changes. But again referencing item #4 we needed at least a minimum of stability. If you want us to work on hard days off you need to realize a need for premium pay to compensate for the disruption. And you need to ask, not order a change when a day off is involved. You would be surprised at how far a little niceness goes.

10) Upgrades should not be held above an FO's head to get him to stick around. A command is a great thing and many of your pilots are sticking around because they were promised an upgrade. It's very transparent how AAI states command will be on such-and-such a date and then recinds it or delays it time and time again in order to keep someone around.

Overall I would say that AAI doesn't have a chance of staying in business unless it drastically and quickly changes it's ways. I stick by my statement of "AAI has a lot coming to it". AAI needs to own up to it's past and change it's ways if it has even a small chance of continuing in business. Please don't take this as a threat, I don't have a dog in this hunt anymore. It's a simple observation from personal experience. Don't go storming off all mad with a shrug and thoughts of yet another disgruntled pilot. Had I not had good intentions I would continue to warn pilots away from AAI and not try to give you an honest appraisal of the situation that is apparent to all the pilots but up till now not to the management of AAI. It's a tough thing for someone to tell you to your face that you've been bad and you need to change. Be adults about this, take this in the spirit it was given.

Regards,

[VS1711]

Ok here’s my five good and five bad. I’ll start with the good;

• A lot of good low-time guys got their start with AAI. To echo Ganbare’s point the company isn’t sufficiently discriminating about who they hire but there are guys who’ve deservedly benefited from that and grown into accomplished airmen (as well as quite a few scary people who have been and continue to be a major liability). Where it works well you see a new guy spending a lot of time in the company of a seasoned pro who’s paid their dues and when it falls down you’ll see a new guy sitting next to a guy who’s washed out of every respectable company that’s ever let him through the door or is only in the seat because of his nationality. Neither of them really know what they’re doing in that instance and it’s a miracle the company hasn’t had worse incidents.
• In times when the industry was stagnant and pilots were out of work, AAI was hiring. Unfortunately much of the HR department lives in Iceland and pay very little attention to the hiring market so they still act like the entire profession is on the breadline and should be grateful for the work. In fact it's largely greenhorns and the unemployable who take work on that basis now.
• If you can take the working conditions (uncertainty, time away from home, low pay) working at AAI can still be a great experience. You wouldn’t want to do it for too long though unless you’re willing to basically live out of a suitcase all year round.
• The conditions of work are such that you build great friendships working at AAI (with your peers, the management prefer not to mix with the working stiffs and the quickest way to stall your career in AAI Ops to be perceived as being “too close to the crew”, which points to the underlying issues).
• To a large degree the management has changed. Unfortunately the insular nature of Icelandic management is such that I get a sense the new Icelanders are only listening to the old Icelanders and no-one’s asking the difficult questions like “Why do we have such massive churn in our crew?”, “Why are our training costs so high?”, “Have we looked at the cost (expressed as churn and training costs) versus the benefits (evaded tax and lower crew costs) of treating our crew this way?”. Let’s not forget AAI loses money.

Ok now the bad. I don’t need five points here.

The company has a two-tier system for employing pilots. Airborne crew are on significantly worse terms than the others. These irony is that these are the guys who are the most flexible and keep the whole shebang running.

Calling employees “contractors” was reasonable when the company started because contracts were short term and the company virtually shut down between them. The ACE way of working allowed the company to be flexible about hiring crew and it allowed the crew to maximise their earnings from uncertain work. Continuing to work that way and worse yet to impose these rules on “unfavoured crew” based largely on nationality when the company has long-term contracts is unfair, anti-competitive and could be seen as large-scale tax evasion.


Leaving Airborne out of it for now; if you pay for people’s training, give them credit for tenure and promise them advancement based on experience gained within the firm (thus creating implicit pressure to conform to practices that they perceive put their licenses at risk and compromise their independence), hire them contiguously for long periods without explicitly breaking and re-signing the contracts, pay their travel to and from your bases and communicate directly with them on matters such as the transfer from ACE to Airborne you employ those people.

Coming to the matter of Airborne, by forcing your employees to work through a shady intermediary to evade corporate responsibilities you marginalise those crewmembers. All crew should have the option of being on the firm’s books as employees or choosing to remain contractors and enjoy the tax efficiencies. Yes your personnel costs would go up (although hiring professionals to manage the process might give you options you didn’t know you had to offset cost) but you might find your training costs stabilise, you retain the people you want to retain and while there will always be guys who think their lives would improve if they didn’t pay tax, you’d have the option of deploying them to tax-efficient bases. You’ll also start to offset the risk that a tax or AML authority somewhere will look for and find the rumoured link in beneficial ownership between Airborne and AAI (past or present) which could lead to very severe repercussions for everyone connected.

So there’s my suggestion. Bite the bullet and acknowledge that your most valued asset, a lot of dedicated people who go the extra mile, are a true asset. If you’re losing money year on year anyway you need to mix things up a bit.

[Formally Known As]

to the above. Well put.


The fact that AAI's problems are being discussed in this manner, at all and in public, points to enormous communication problems between management and staff. If this thread doesn't not get through to them, they either have big b*lls, are extremely stupid or thick. If the management had any pride and decency whatsoever they would resign.


I sent them a letter of complaint before I finally decided to kicked them into touch. Guess what? you guessed it, no response. Oh they received it alright don't worry about that.

[BadApple747]

Nice thoughts VS1711, but have you considered that if there are salaried people in AAI with vested interests in Airborne then they will actively seek to drive as much revenue through Airborne as possible even if they know there's a risk to the firm as a whole?

This is particularly true if AAI is, as many say it is, in decline. If I were in that position with a near monopoly position on a client in terminal decline, and with no other clients or real prospects of getting any, I'd milk that cash cow for all it was worth while I could. It's a bit of a conspiracy theory, but not implausible is it?

[Mr HF]

the boat is sinking

But,as the fishhead says...what are u thinking about????
(he may be german,but acts like a icelandic to me...)

anyway,guys and girls
The boat is def.sinking.I will eat my dirty 7hrs (k.l-dxb) socks if they manage to progress.
A lot of promix and visions,but how could u run a company when key mec.are quitting one by one?
We could ventilate and ventilate....
Any news on the 4/2?
Se U !

[MaxBlow]

off topic

did you see the Euro08 group match yesterday ?

SWE - ISL
5 - 0

uuhhh these beers tasted really good!

[Atlanta-Driver]

Yes I watched the game. It was beautiful. But the again Swedish players could have been blind amputee grandmothers with a speach disorder and still win. It was pure slaughter.

[BadApple747]

AAI Ops has gone a bit quiet. I hope he didn't march into the CEO's office with a mission statement based on our suggestions. He'll be on a plane to an outstation by now

[MaxBlow]

...He'll be on a plane to an outstation by now...

I think AAIops probably got a new roster full of VACs (or should I call it 'temporarely unemployed until they decide that they maybe might want to use you again but only if you're really nice').

AAI has to face facts and deal with their various problems. Whatever AAIops is trying to say, I know of more people who're leaving - they just don't tell them. And right they are!

[canadair]

I was going to write a wordy tome on my take on the pro`s and con`s of AAI,
then I realised,

no one cares,
most of all, me

[GlueBall]

Grass isn't much greener on the other side

Hello boys 'n girls. Interesting thread, but don't feel isolated with YOUR management woes. The condescending managers at CX have a more sinister attitude, as evidenced in a recent posting in a Fragrant Harbour thread

"...If I remember correctly you had many more pilots in the club in 2001 and again if I remember correctly you voted over 90% in favor of industrial action. Less than 10% carried it out and we terminated 5% of them. The pilots now have less club members after many hundreds of pilots joined the company. Yes much has changed since 2001.

"If the HKAOA announces a “work to rule” campaign, we will select a few pilots that step out of line. We will run a D&G and will find those pilots not acting in the best interest of The Cathay Pacific Group and will be terminated immediately.

"At that time, all of the pilots will be running to save their own self as in the past. Do you actually think you can get the pilots to report sick or on a so called strike until those pilots get their jobs back. I think we been through this before and the pilots lost and WE won. In that context, nothing has changed or will ever change.

"We have all pilots living in fear of losing their job. In most cases we put a letter on a pilots P-file and that is usually enough. If not, these pilots are called in to speak to a Manager about the situation i.e. not flying the freighter, not reducing rest, not using discretion, not answering the phone, sickness management, etc. The pilots at the Cathay Pacific Group are very intimidated and that is what the 49ers situation has created.

"Do you expect The Management of The Cathay Pacific Group to believe there will be a rebellion of the pilots?

"We have some bad apples still in the pilot group and you seem to be one. Most pilots now work in favour of The Cathay Pacific Group through intimidation of course. We still have many pilots willing to help out OUR Company in whatever way Crew Control/Managers will ask of them. Our Flying Pilot Managers are only too happy to intimidate the crew, it can be very subtle, call to the office, or very harsh, with the threat of a D&G procedure. That is what we pay them for.

"We have read all the literature before about “union that they deserve”. It does not work here.

"We must admit, in 2001 we thought we may have another 1999 on our hands but by firing the 51 pilots that effectively ended that sort of behavior in the pilot group. Many pilots still flew even though we threatened them with a sign or be fired. Many signed the critical mass list within the first few hours. We know the character of the pilots and that will not change.

"If you would like to leave for any of those companies that you have mentioned, leave. The Cathay Pacific Group is still the best career job, if not the only career job, in Asia and most other parts of the world. Yes we will lose some to the UPS’s and Fed Ex's but that is only a token few. There are always pilots that cannot get hired with these companies or are too old to return to their home country to start over. We have most pilots where we want them, obedient and poor.

"We have a list of all owner occupiers and most have expenses in their home countries We know most pilots are over extended in the financial situation and cannot afford to lose their jobs. If one cannot afford to lose ones job, then one will follow in the best interest of the company i.e. as mentioned above. How many can do without housing allowance for a month?"

[Flight Detent]

GlueBall...

That really reminds me of the management style when CX took control of Air Hong Kong, though AHK had a couple of CX "managers" in place before the actual takeover.

Needless to say I left shortly after, about a year, CX took control!

What an ugly reminder that was!!!

FD...

[Formally Known As]

GlueBall


That letter from CX "management" made ugly reading. This will continue of course as crews will never stick together. Employers and management know it.

[MaxBlow]

AAIops

Where are you? You asked for inputs and got plenty. The least you could do is to say 'thank you guys for your suggestions' - that's so typical.
Just ignore if a dicussion touches your comfy zone.

15 and counting!

[AAI_Operations]

Hello guys,

Sorry for my late reply. There has been talk at the office about this thread so I could not let them see me browse pprune. Then when ready to answer the first posts I had to go abroad for the company. Sorry again guys.

I've read the inputs from A to Z. The most interesting thing in my mind is that I asked for "10 things that you think will improve Air Atlanta" (and the 5 good things of course) but the replies were generally "10 bad things". I think this says more about the attitude of those who answer (towards the company) then what they say in their answers. It makes me sad.

I'm sorry I will not be able to answer all these comments, but I will take them to the operations department, and if I can I will use them as an input into our work. I know this will help, it will just take some time.

For now this will be my last post. My inputs has not proven to be the positive influence I was hoping for. I even think that I have done more bad than good, opposite to my intentions.

Best of luck to you all and happy flying

[MaxBlow]

Survey

Good to see that the survey is being sent to everybody by now.
I hope that everybody participates to give HQ ideas on how to improve worklife with/for AAI.
A little to late for me though...

[747flyby]

Whats happening in AAI?

Unfortunately few years back present management in AAI was replaced by Islandsflug management with the merger. They had plans to make life more bearable for everyone in AAI before being able to see their plans through.

Now they are back.

Among cost cutting measures to save the company they will do their outmost to make life better for all of us.

As we all know the company has been for sale for a while and Eimskip the owner with a major shareholder onboard are not interested in keeping it afloat any more. Its like they have lost interest in aviation since their plans did not work out.

It is sad to see companies who have been built up on a dream gets taken over by sharks where they take all the valuable assets and sell them and leave the business as leftovers on the plate.

There is a big group in Iceland with a branch in London called FL group.
Their money came from breaking Icelandair into sections like the Hotels, Bus company etc and sell everything. Iclendair had lots of reserves in their funds and they took that as well. Then they sold the airline.

This is unfortunately happening all over the world in all busines sectors.

Then the biggest owner buys himself a business jet and lets his lossmaking company pay for the fuel.

God help us all.

[BelArgUSA]

There is a lot of good with AAI

Why such criticism of AAI - Nobody has valid points.
I have many good points for them...
xxx
(1) I was hired as captain in the first group of AAI 747 crews and arrived in JED with the two 747-257Bs they operated from APR 1993. We all were current 747 and most of us had flown previously for Saudia ACMI contracts. AAI never had operated 747s, so far they had operated L-1011s and 737s... I stayed with them until JUN 1994, at that time I got a furlough notice, but they were fast to recommend me for a captain position with Cargolux for a 6 month captain contract on their 747-271Cs. A good point for AAI.
xxx
(2) The salary, during the contract in JED 1993/1994, for captains was, give or take a few dollars, exactly the same as the pay for a new contract when I got rehired by AAI in Crawley (by Airborne) in JUN 2004. AAI did not reduce the pay for 747 crews despite the increase charges and reduced revenues. Indeed another good point for AAI.
xxx
(3) To my surprise, AAI date of hire on my new ID card was still showing APR 1993, and even gave me my original "very senior" ID number (not that it matter at all to be senior or not with AAI). Good point, AAI, thank you.
xxx
(4) I had passed my 60th birthday a few months prior to rehire, and did appreciate to be told that they valued my experience, and that the age limit did not apply on some contracts, and that anyway, a limit of age 65 was soon to be observed by ICAO. Thank you again, AAI...
xxx
(5) I have to admit that the recurrent and base training was outstanding and well done by AAI instructors, yet only one other captain was current and qualified on 747 as I was, in the class of some 20 hew hires. Since I was current, I was selected to be the first to take the base simulator check, after a brief training, all completed early JUL 2004. Well done, AAI...
xxx
Well, the storm was coming. Little of the above had anything to do with Airborne, and Airborne's coordination with AAI offices in Iceland...
xxx
We had wet ditching training in a swimming pool near Gatwick, and I helped a flight engineer who could not swim, to board a raft, and hurt myself. I was not aware I had sustained a hernia. The hernia was diagnosed at the JAR medical and my JAR first class was denied until hernia surgery completed.
xxx
The end/JUL early/AUG period was spent to try to obtain Airborne and AAI authorization for surgery. But everyone was vacationing, nobody could be reached. Finally, authorization was obtained from Iceland in late AUG and was performed in Brussels hospital. Again, good point nº 6 for AAI, they recognized their responsibility for my injury in wet ditching training, and advised the hospital that they would pay for surgery. Good point AAI...
xxx
After surgery (3 days in hospital) I waited in a Brussels hotel, my surgeon had cleared me to report for work by mid/SEP. Also got same OK by the FAA medical examiner, and new FAA 1st class medical. I waited in the Brussels hotel until mid/NOV to be called for line training. There was a total break of coordination between Airborne and AAI, and who is to pay what and how much, as I was running out of funds in Brussels. At the end, as per contract, I was owed US$24,400 for medical incapacity.
xxx
My line training got awful, no briefings whatsoever, the check captain telling me "big airplane, do you know" - "No, this is not the way to taxi" - For God sake, I had nearly 5,000 PIC hrs in 747s and numerous Atlantic crossings - He informed me "how great BA is" - Should I have mentioned that ex-PanAm pilots did not always agree to BA's opinion or procedural styles...? I recall some 20 negative remarks by that pedantic clown, from push-back to line-up on the LGW runway on the very first sector. There were 6 sectors performed in these conditions... I should have demanded another check-captain upon return after the second sector.
xxx
Sure, FAA and JAR/CAA standards might be slightly different at times, but through my career, I always refered to FAA rules and procedures, and never failed to satify check captains, no matter what airline or country, FAA or not.
xxx
By mid/DEC 2004, Airborne notified me of suspension of my training. There is no doubt that the US$24,400 owed was one of the grounds, which they never paid. Their official excuse was, that during my medical incapacity, I did not hold a JAR licence/medical as required for the contract to be valid...
xxx
The outcome would have been completely different, if all had been under direct control of Iceland, and not being pointed to another person or office in charge of my case, from my injury time, until training completion. I had suffered nearly 6 months of inactivity, hotel rooms, numerous phone calls, and email messages (150 pages) during that period of time...
xxx
So AAI/Airborne or whoever, thank you for wasting 8 months of my life.
One day it was "no, Iceland has to take care of this"...
The next day, it was "no, you are Airborne employee, deal with them"...
xxx
Besides all that, AAI has excellent points, I recommend them to all of you, and problems equal to the ones I had...
And I did prefer the Kandahar, Rose Village or Al Bilad, to Crawley...
xxx

Happy contrails

[MaxBlow]

As the saying goes - no news is good news.

Lots of changes in the pipeline according to some ex-collegues.
JED is the main base for everybody joining these days with a -400 leased to Saudia as well.

The outcome of that company survey showed how disapointed crews where and gave management alot to think about.

Best of luck to them all from a much greener side!

[punkalouver]

So what is going on these days at AAI?