Cargolux details requested!
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HighLoader,
If the ground staff was soo unhappy with their CWA, how come you voted yes? It appears that the pilot-only delegation was able to get an agreement that the ground staff was happy with but not an agreement the pilots was happy with. Who won in the end??? This is not the issue. Just look back to 97-98 when ground staff ignored the pilots. The opposite did not happen now.
Don't expect too much with the next delegation (I'm sure you will get a majority next time!) because the company can still completely ignore you and instruct the unions to vote their way. It is such a pity we can't work together, and I just don't just mean pilot/ground staff, but really employees and employers! This short sighted attitude has already led to previously motivated staff now being fed-up and running scared. Too bad. This used to be a good company to work for where we did not have to clean our dirty laundry in public to avoid being fired.....
If the ground staff was soo unhappy with their CWA, how come you voted yes? It appears that the pilot-only delegation was able to get an agreement that the ground staff was happy with but not an agreement the pilots was happy with. Who won in the end??? This is not the issue. Just look back to 97-98 when ground staff ignored the pilots. The opposite did not happen now.
Don't expect too much with the next delegation (I'm sure you will get a majority next time!) because the company can still completely ignore you and instruct the unions to vote their way. It is such a pity we can't work together, and I just don't just mean pilot/ground staff, but really employees and employers! This short sighted attitude has already led to previously motivated staff now being fed-up and running scared. Too bad. This used to be a good company to work for where we did not have to clean our dirty laundry in public to avoid being fired.....
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You say ground staff are happy with it, pilots are not? Well maybe one group is just easier to please than the other.
And did I say I was unhappy with the CWA?
Let's say I'm OK with it. Nothing much changed for us anyway. A slight salary increase and more I don't see... Thanks for not ignoring us.
If two parties cannot work together, it is rarely the fault of just one side.
And by the way, I am this evil and rough company you are talking about and so are you.
And did I say I was unhappy with the CWA?
Let's say I'm OK with it. Nothing much changed for us anyway. A slight salary increase and more I don't see... Thanks for not ignoring us.
If two parties cannot work together, it is rarely the fault of just one side.
And by the way, I am this evil and rough company you are talking about and so are you.
Evertonian
I'll just throw my 2c in from a distance.
It is almost a given that pilots & groundstaff are diametrically opposed when it comes to conditions and agreements. Could it be that groundstaff think the pilot group is overpaid & underworked? Could the pilots think that groundstaff are overpaid & underworked? Who knows for sure? The thing is, that the company (and that's all airlines managements) know this and use it to their advantage.
As Ratty has asked, I wont go into specifics, but I was at the coal face when this very issue raised its head in Dunnunda & the Pilots went it alone. The combined weight of the airline, government & the apathy of the other employees meant that the Pilots were crushed & the face of aviation in Australia changed forever.
Now, I obviously don't know all the specifics of what you lot are up against, but as a former employee of CV and having thoroughly enjoyed my time there, I would hate to see the employees at loggerheads against each other, whilst the company sits back & watches. The only way forward is together and you need to sort out your differences before that happens.
Pray it's not too late.
Good luck!
It is almost a given that pilots & groundstaff are diametrically opposed when it comes to conditions and agreements. Could it be that groundstaff think the pilot group is overpaid & underworked? Could the pilots think that groundstaff are overpaid & underworked? Who knows for sure? The thing is, that the company (and that's all airlines managements) know this and use it to their advantage.
As Ratty has asked, I wont go into specifics, but I was at the coal face when this very issue raised its head in Dunnunda & the Pilots went it alone. The combined weight of the airline, government & the apathy of the other employees meant that the Pilots were crushed & the face of aviation in Australia changed forever.
Now, I obviously don't know all the specifics of what you lot are up against, but as a former employee of CV and having thoroughly enjoyed my time there, I would hate to see the employees at loggerheads against each other, whilst the company sits back & watches. The only way forward is together and you need to sort out your differences before that happens.
Pray it's not too late.
Good luck!
Now that something is signed, continue with the true Luxembourgisch model: secret meetings behind closed doors.
As long as there is no reverse in T&C, you can be happy already in todays world.
Next door -at the other airline- everyone who is a bit qualified is using his or her elbows to jump ship. Not pretty at all..
As long as there is no reverse in T&C, you can be happy already in todays world.
Next door -at the other airline- everyone who is a bit qualified is using his or her elbows to jump ship. Not pretty at all..
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Gosh,
i wish this so-called delegation - may there be now pilots or non-pilots - would have spent so much of there time and energy to look after 100+ people`s interest just under 2 years ago...
May your cotton socks be blessed and have fun dealing with the "financial heroe`s" (caused thats what is driving this company nowadays.. make a quick buck, and forget about the rest)... - enjoy
@raycosmic:
don`t think the folks - at the other airline down the road - are alone checking their qualifications... there are a fair number of "former CV" employees trying to avoid staying too long on a sinking "49/51pct show-boat"...
@ all - be happy you have a CWA... other people are not so lucky
Cheers
i wish this so-called delegation - may there be now pilots or non-pilots - would have spent so much of there time and energy to look after 100+ people`s interest just under 2 years ago...
May your cotton socks be blessed and have fun dealing with the "financial heroe`s" (caused thats what is driving this company nowadays.. make a quick buck, and forget about the rest)... - enjoy
@raycosmic:
don`t think the folks - at the other airline down the road - are alone checking their qualifications... there are a fair number of "former CV" employees trying to avoid staying too long on a sinking "49/51pct show-boat"...
@ all - be happy you have a CWA... other people are not so lucky
Cheers
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My point is, the way this issue has been dealt with is not correct. Some one mentioned that we should be happy just having a CWA but when we haven't signed and agreed to it then there is not really an AGREEMENT anymore.
I'm glad other groups are reasonably happy with what they got but please don't get into the habit of ignoring your colleagues who still have great concerns. I suspect that should the ground staff have the majority now they would have done what they did last time... ignore the minority. But again, this is not the issue this time. What is happening now can happen to you two years from now.
I'm glad other groups are reasonably happy with what they got but please don't get into the habit of ignoring your colleagues who still have great concerns. I suspect that should the ground staff have the majority now they would have done what they did last time... ignore the minority. But again, this is not the issue this time. What is happening now can happen to you two years from now.
Originally Posted by Aedius
8 LG Pilots just got greenlighted to start at CV in January 2007.
Maybe it's time now for me to do the same.
Maybe it's time now for me to do the same.
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yes, 2 will be allowed to leave LG in September, something which you certainly knew for a few weeks, and the other 6 just got their confirmation from the management for next January the other day.
Well, that's great news then!
One of them was not aware of this fact this afternoon.
It must be said full credit in this goes to the current LG CEO, the new LG DO and the ones involved in CV. The amount of flexibility displayed by CV, in combination with the sympathy received from forementioned LG people is unique. (with a littlebit of help from LCGB..)
Hope for you things remained this way by the time you made up your mind, Aedius!
One of them was not aware of this fact this afternoon.
It must be said full credit in this goes to the current LG CEO, the new LG DO and the ones involved in CV. The amount of flexibility displayed by CV, in combination with the sympathy received from forementioned LG people is unique.
(with a littlebit of help from LCGB..)Hope for you things remained this way by the time you made up your mind, Aedius!
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I can't really agree with your opinion eventhough I know that it is shared with several people from our management.
I don't think that most of the pilots leaving LG now thought of LG being a flight training school for CV but rather decided to leave LG because they saw no future within LG and didn't like the idea of becoming a Q400 captain in 15 -20 years when they have the possibility to fly 747-800s around the world and earn more money within a more "future-proof" company.
At least that's the way I see, and most probably the reason why I will try to switch over to CV. In fact, only 6-8 months ago, I never thought of leaving LG but that changed now because of the doubtful future of LG and not because I believe that my "CV flighttraining" is now complete. No offense though.
I don't think that most of the pilots leaving LG now thought of LG being a flight training school for CV but rather decided to leave LG because they saw no future within LG and didn't like the idea of becoming a Q400 captain in 15 -20 years when they have the possibility to fly 747-800s around the world and earn more money within a more "future-proof" company.
At least that's the way I see, and most probably the reason why I will try to switch over to CV. In fact, only 6-8 months ago, I never thought of leaving LG but that changed now because of the doubtful future of LG and not because I believe that my "CV flighttraining" is now complete. No offense though.
Originally Posted by From Dusk Till Dawn
@ AEDIUS
Could you please explain what you mean by "earning more"?
As far as I can compare both Payscales, the monthly basic salary is at least 400-500€ brut higher in LG than in CLX!
Any update is highly appreciated.
Could you please explain what you mean by "earning more"?
As far as I can compare both Payscales, the monthly basic salary is at least 400-500€ brut higher in LG than in CLX!
Any update is highly appreciated.
The first year you'll lose, but after that you'll be back at your old level; net that is, not brut.
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It's rather an "end-result" than a "brutto salary" thing.
LG employees are going to have a salary freeze for the next 3 years, allowances are higher at CV than at LG and CV employees got for the last few years a real nice profit-share bonus where at LG the bonus has been mediocre to almost non-existing.
Another point which will determine your real, net salary in the long run is the perspective of becoming a captain. With the present situation my upgrade to captain will take at least twice as long as it would be the case if I join CV right now.
Of course you'll also have to consider the future of LG. What will have happened to LG in 10 years? "Swissair to Swiss" phenomenon anyone?
LG employees are going to have a salary freeze for the next 3 years, allowances are higher at CV than at LG and CV employees got for the last few years a real nice profit-share bonus where at LG the bonus has been mediocre to almost non-existing.
Another point which will determine your real, net salary in the long run is the perspective of becoming a captain. With the present situation my upgrade to captain will take at least twice as long as it would be the case if I join CV right now.
Of course you'll also have to consider the future of LG. What will have happened to LG in 10 years? "Swissair to Swiss" phenomenon anyone?
True, LG salaries won't be frozen.
Most LG pilots, if not all have already the 3500 hours, certainly after reaching the 600 hrs 747.
Meaning the brut basic salary after these 600 hours is €4800, instead of the plm. €5300 an LG FO makes. After that the rises are comparable; around €150 p.m. rise p.a.
That's indeed a difference, but the allowances etc. should compensate for that. And don't forget, these €500 are taxed as well, making the difference even smaller.
Now if you look at the extended career, if salaries at LG remain the same over the years, you'll reach your max FO salary in scale number 8, being €6221,87 with the 737 and current index.
You'll be stuck there, until your upgrade.
With CV you'll continue (as far as I understand) up till FO scale (god forbid it will take that long to upgrade) 31, being €9231,19 at today's index.
So, not a dramatic difference, but that in combination with all the other factors involved makes CV for most of LG the company of choice.
Most LG pilots, if not all have already the 3500 hours, certainly after reaching the 600 hrs 747.
Meaning the brut basic salary after these 600 hours is €4800, instead of the plm. €5300 an LG FO makes. After that the rises are comparable; around €150 p.m. rise p.a.
That's indeed a difference, but the allowances etc. should compensate for that. And don't forget, these €500 are taxed as well, making the difference even smaller.
Now if you look at the extended career, if salaries at LG remain the same over the years, you'll reach your max FO salary in scale number 8, being €6221,87 with the 737 and current index.
You'll be stuck there, until your upgrade.
With CV you'll continue (as far as I understand) up till FO scale (god forbid it will take that long to upgrade) 31, being €9231,19 at today's index.
So, not a dramatic difference, but that in combination with all the other factors involved makes CV for most of LG the company of choice.
Last edited by ray cosmic; 13th Aug 2006 at 19:02.
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Hear the CV-pilot makes about €1500/month in average as per diem. Up to 1st of August it was in USD, but know in EUR. (€4/hour away from LUX for FO and €4,50/hour for CMD. Working about 15 days/month).
What per diem is it in LG? Per hour or sector or day?
Regards,
What per diem is it in LG? Per hour or sector or day?
Regards,
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At LG you get paid for working days, depending on the number of duty hours you had each day.
Less than 6 hours: 16,66€
More than 6 but less than 12: 25.00€
More than 12: 50.00€
My average for a busy month is around 430€
Less than 6 hours: 16,66€
More than 6 but less than 12: 25.00€
More than 12: 50.00€
My average for a busy month is around 430€
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But how long is expected to up-grade as Comander in Cargolux?
Is the company hiring now ?
If one of you, well...I believe flew Airbus Fly By Wire before being type rated on 747-400 how was your adaptation ?
Regards
Is the company hiring now ?
If one of you, well...I believe flew Airbus Fly By Wire before being type rated on 747-400 how was your adaptation ?
Regards
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@ all who consider joining CV:
1. Upgrade Perspectives:
We have a very unbalanced age structure. A huge bunch of pilots are around 30-40 years old. Meaning that an upgrade based solely on others retiring, would take very, very long. In short: Your upgrade totally depends on ongoing expansion. It's a snowball game....
When I joined, there were just a few guys being upgraded after only 2 years of service (having considerable previous experience), due to rapid expansion.
Right now, upgrades take place after 7 years. When it's my turn, I'll have close to 10 years. Any future perspectives depend on the devellopment of upgrades/year. At present: aprox. 20, so 200 people in front of you means 10 years. But don't count on it! We've had virtually no upgrades i.e. in 2003 - don't think this can't happen again...
2. Working conditions:
Yes, the newly signed CWA contains some slight enhancements. The main thing being, that the 3 "floating" OFF-days must now be granted in a block of 3. The main problem is though, that this new CWA has only a limited continuation after its expiry in 2008, namely 9 months. If no new agreement is found by then, we'll be down to legal limits!! That means, the company can then, basicly push through ANY claims because time plays for them. That's why I'm quite pessimistic about future working conditions - they will IMHO be a mere matter of market laws.
3. Rostering practice:
Anything is possible - just don't expect anything! There may be trips that you like, but don't complain if you get a few s**ty rosters in a row....
The worst thing are 24h layovers, getting in at night, to leave again the same time next night! If you get that constantly, you'll wish you'd rather fly island-hopping on a piston-plane....
4. SENIORITY
In Cargolux, seniority means everything. There are unfortunately a lot of guys at the top of the list who couldn't care less whether you can get your life organized at all or not. Don't expect to get a single vacation request with low seniority - it will be allocated somewhere in February and November. There has been an attempt to fix this, but failed, because too many old guys have an outdated attitude of "everybody has to go through the same hardship like I had to".
Same with the bidding for trips + OFF-days: With only few people behind you, there's no point in even bidding for anything at all - the system will not even make it down to you. Also, the AIMS bidding system that CV uses is Web-technology of the 80s (=takes a lot of time to work your way thorugh).
Once you get your lucky upgrade after, say 10 years, the whole thing starts over again.
5. Salary and Per Diem:
The statements in this thread on salary are quite correct.
Just PLEASE don't calculate the Per Diem as part of the salary, especially if you're not used to long-haul-ops. You'll yet have to find out for yourself, howmuch of the 96 EUR per day you'll need on the road. You're not going to make many friends by only dining at McDonalds. Apart from eating, you may need some money for certain activities, that make life on layovers bearable in the long run. Some play golf, some tennis, sightseeing, etc. etc. All this doesn't make it a great life, it just keeps you from getting depressive, which you will if you spend your time only in your room. Of course, the shorter the layovers get, the less chance you'll have to spend money...
6. Travel on company A/C
There could be some nice opportunities of taking your wife/girlfriend along on a trip. But always exciting! All of a sudden some horse grooms pop up (or some relative of the CEO), and she gets bumped off at Melbourne (lots of stories of that kind).
Travel with kids: very, very limited...
7. Culture in CV and LUX
Whowever thought that there was still some cooperation between management and pilots, shoul know better by now. It seems that at least some key persons in management hate pilots. There seems to be a great lack of mutual understanding. Not a good precontition for your working atmosphere.
The LUX system looks great at first, with nice laws about money (salary index, low tax however progression is strong here too), vacation (comes on top of any OFF-days), state benefits for kids....
The catch is, that LUX is not a real democracy in terms of separation of powers. The Luxies all know each other, and corruption is a big issue. So there's no real enforcement of law available for you, at least don't count on it...
8. Company strategy for the future
I'm not sure if there is any. We had a very capable CEO until 2001, Heiner Wilkens, who really put the company on the track we're on. He initiated the expansion, and I believe the current management has finally got it that this has to continue. All management is currently doing, is keeping track. If any turbulences ever arise, I doubt very much that they will be capable of steering us through.
Bottom line: Decide for yourself if this offers indeed a career perspective for you. Give it a 2nd thought!
We have a very unbalanced age structure. A huge bunch of pilots are around 30-40 years old. Meaning that an upgrade based solely on others retiring, would take very, very long. In short: Your upgrade totally depends on ongoing expansion. It's a snowball game....
When I joined, there were just a few guys being upgraded after only 2 years of service (having considerable previous experience), due to rapid expansion.
Right now, upgrades take place after 7 years. When it's my turn, I'll have close to 10 years. Any future perspectives depend on the devellopment of upgrades/year. At present: aprox. 20, so 200 people in front of you means 10 years. But don't count on it! We've had virtually no upgrades i.e. in 2003 - don't think this can't happen again...
2. Working conditions:
Yes, the newly signed CWA contains some slight enhancements. The main thing being, that the 3 "floating" OFF-days must now be granted in a block of 3. The main problem is though, that this new CWA has only a limited continuation after its expiry in 2008, namely 9 months. If no new agreement is found by then, we'll be down to legal limits!! That means, the company can then, basicly push through ANY claims because time plays for them. That's why I'm quite pessimistic about future working conditions - they will IMHO be a mere matter of market laws.
3. Rostering practice:
Anything is possible - just don't expect anything! There may be trips that you like, but don't complain if you get a few s**ty rosters in a row....
The worst thing are 24h layovers, getting in at night, to leave again the same time next night! If you get that constantly, you'll wish you'd rather fly island-hopping on a piston-plane....
4. SENIORITY
In Cargolux, seniority means everything. There are unfortunately a lot of guys at the top of the list who couldn't care less whether you can get your life organized at all or not. Don't expect to get a single vacation request with low seniority - it will be allocated somewhere in February and November. There has been an attempt to fix this, but failed, because too many old guys have an outdated attitude of "everybody has to go through the same hardship like I had to".
Same with the bidding for trips + OFF-days: With only few people behind you, there's no point in even bidding for anything at all - the system will not even make it down to you. Also, the AIMS bidding system that CV uses is Web-technology of the 80s (=takes a lot of time to work your way thorugh).
Once you get your lucky upgrade after, say 10 years, the whole thing starts over again.
5. Salary and Per Diem:
The statements in this thread on salary are quite correct.
Just PLEASE don't calculate the Per Diem as part of the salary, especially if you're not used to long-haul-ops. You'll yet have to find out for yourself, howmuch of the 96 EUR per day you'll need on the road. You're not going to make many friends by only dining at McDonalds. Apart from eating, you may need some money for certain activities, that make life on layovers bearable in the long run. Some play golf, some tennis, sightseeing, etc. etc. All this doesn't make it a great life, it just keeps you from getting depressive, which you will if you spend your time only in your room. Of course, the shorter the layovers get, the less chance you'll have to spend money...
6. Travel on company A/C
There could be some nice opportunities of taking your wife/girlfriend along on a trip. But always exciting! All of a sudden some horse grooms pop up (or some relative of the CEO), and she gets bumped off at Melbourne (lots of stories of that kind).
Travel with kids: very, very limited...
7. Culture in CV and LUX
Whowever thought that there was still some cooperation between management and pilots, shoul know better by now. It seems that at least some key persons in management hate pilots. There seems to be a great lack of mutual understanding. Not a good precontition for your working atmosphere.
The LUX system looks great at first, with nice laws about money (salary index, low tax however progression is strong here too), vacation (comes on top of any OFF-days), state benefits for kids....
The catch is, that LUX is not a real democracy in terms of separation of powers. The Luxies all know each other, and corruption is a big issue. So there's no real enforcement of law available for you, at least don't count on it...
8. Company strategy for the future
I'm not sure if there is any. We had a very capable CEO until 2001, Heiner Wilkens, who really put the company on the track we're on. He initiated the expansion, and I believe the current management has finally got it that this has to continue. All management is currently doing, is keeping track. If any turbulences ever arise, I doubt very much that they will be capable of steering us through.
Bottom line: Decide for yourself if this offers indeed a career perspective for you. Give it a 2nd thought!
