PPRuNe Forums


Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 4th Sep 2017, 04:14   #1 (permalink)
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: 1st Floor
Age: 27
Posts: 32
KA's Parallel Seniority

With the mass exodus of KA FOP management to CX city today, and the forthcoming move of all Dragon pilots and cabin crew to check in @ CX city , does this mean that the "Parallel " seniority will be envisaged by the start of 2018?

This scheme, that was first muted a few years ago on the full integration of joint FOP , could now be just around the corner for all concerned.

The parallel scheme, purely voluntary at the moment , proposes that crew keep their current seniority standing in their respective employers, but have the right to join a parallel or ghosting seniority . Its like a one glove fits all senario , but details are scarce.

Additionally, new joiners will be assigned two galaxy IDs to allow parity for future migration into , as yet , undocumented common seniority.
Krone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th Sep 2017, 07:28   #2 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 309
This will be interesting.....

It's like the proverbial elephant in the room - it's been there for a while, but it didn't bother anyone, so nobody did anything about it, other than wondering how the [email protected] it got there without anyone really noticing it, but it's getting bigger and probably needs addressing sooner rather than later.
LongTimeInCX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th Sep 2017, 07:54   #3 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: CLK
Posts: 135
I Suppose the DPA and HKAOA might actually have to acknowledge the others existence and start working together?
Union collaboration and mutual support should have been happening since the day CX gained ownership.
Farman Biplane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th Sep 2017, 11:08   #4 (permalink)
swh

Eidolon
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Some hole
Posts: 1,750
Nice wind up
swh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Sep 2017, 12:57   #5 (permalink)
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: 1st Floor
Age: 27
Posts: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by swh View Post
Nice wind up
Yep all a wind up . KA getting equal staff travel prioity , remember that one?

Now all KA crew moving to CX , a wind up?

KA crew to be "integrated" into the CX system, a wind up?

You might be eating your words by the end of 2018 .
Krone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Sep 2017, 13:03   #6 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: VHHH Ocean 2D
Posts: 796
So joint seniority - meaning if the next Command course is on a A321, a CX pilot would be eligible? Will said Captain be sitting next to KA FO who is being paid for 8 hours waiting for a slot to Chengdu while Captain is not?
betpump5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Sep 2017, 13:21   #7 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: In Sin
Age: 47
Posts: 29
You are looking at this issue in black and white. Its unlikly that CX and KA crews will be mixed up considering their respective different COS .
However, a combined contract, offered to those @ CX&Ka who are willing repeal their current TnC's would level the playing field. They would then be rostered according to their new joint COS.
TheGreenDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Sep 2017, 15:24   #8 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: at home
Posts: 92
Think we are still awhile off a joint seniority but as far as flying with different contracts, we do it already in KA with still 3 contracts in effect right now..
I can't see what the issue is if they add another one..
JY9024 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Sep 2017, 15:56   #9 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: VHHH Ocean 2D
Posts: 796
We have ONE seniority list at Cathay yet a junior guy can still trump a senior guy of 25 years to better rosters/fleet.

And they think combining two airlines will work? Yeah OK...
betpump5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Sep 2017, 16:38   #10 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 8
The KA trainers will love to be on the 350.....just watch this space!
Hugo Peroni the IV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Sep 2017, 02:13   #11 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,595
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugo Peroni the IV View Post
The KA trainers will love to be on the 350.....just watch this space!
I hope not. Not as an industrial weapon.

Our trainer membership in the DPA is beyond 90% - higher for what's left of management believe it or not. In fact, some guys are only in the training department because of their DPA involvement. We have quite the club over here at KA. Perhaps the party is over?
Gnadenburg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Sep 2017, 03:53   #12 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 238
Now tell me this wasn't planned already when they came up with the revised priority for staff travel.

So what's the plan when non HKAOA members, DPA, AOAE, AOAC, USAOA, AAOA pilots will fly CX Jets if HKAOA pilots are naughty ?

The DPA and the HKAOA should better get their act together for the interesting times ahead.

Last edited by Frank W. Abagnale; 14th Sep 2017 at 04:21.
Frank W. Abagnale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Sep 2017, 04:40   #13 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Down Town
Posts: 13
After KA has been intergrated, it'll been the intergration of LD.
TriJetFlying is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Sep 2017, 04:47   #14 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1,309
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriJetFlying View Post
After KA has been intergrated, it'll been the intergration of LD.
From a CMP perspective, the integration(s) make sense. From a contractual perspective???
cxorcist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Sep 2017, 05:12   #15 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriJetFlying View Post
After KA has been intergrated, it'll been the intergration of LD.
Perhaps not.

KA and CX cost per pilot are probably similar for new joiners.
LD cost per pilot is cheaper.

Perhaps the long term plan is to morph KA and CX into one pilot career path to attract the new joiners they don't get at the moment (for both KA and CX) with an overall reduction of command time (taking CX as the basis), e.g. down to 7 years.
Furthermore the cheaper cost at LD could lead to an outsourcing of CX freighters to LD (at least in parts).

This could solve quite a few problems they have:
- Single GMA, GMO, DFO, etc. to save cost
- High pre-experience levels pre-wide body to maintain safety as #1 priority with the core business
- High turnover rate of pilots at KA might decrease due to better overall career opportunities
- More applicants overall due to attractive command time
- Use of excess freighter crew for expansion on the passenger side
- Reducing cost per pilot on the freighter side (they hate paying passenger payscale for freighter pilots, that's for sure)
- With a seniority based fleet transfer system it could even lead to the good old days - 777X/350 mainly LH dream fleets, 330/old 777 first widebody XP with plenty of regional sectors, 321neo pre-widebody XP with lots of sectors and everybody would be happy, the new joiners and the old farts (I know, it's not gonna happen)
Frank W. Abagnale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Sep 2017, 05:57   #16 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: VHHK
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krone View Post
Yep all a wind up . KA getting equal staff travel prioity , remember that one?

Now all KA crew moving to CX , a wind up?

KA crew to be "integrated" into the CX system, a wind up?

You might be eating your words by the end of 2018 .
CX and KA do not get EQUAL staff travel benefits, KA get BETTER travel benefits, something the DPA negotiated behind the back of every CX pilot.

KA pilots gets paid more than CX pilots, have better benefits, and are more expensive and are less productive.

CX and KA share the same terminal as well, the same runways, etc fact that KA will be housed inside CX city means nothing. It is just sharing office space, KA guys are salivating at the bit and making rumors up.

Under CAD 360 each AOC holder must have its own briefing room. Each AOC holder MUST have their OWN pilots, you cannot "lead" pilots from one AOC holder to the other, they physically have to be inducted into the other AOC. That is exactly what has happened before when CX managers went to KA, when KA pilots came to CX (they had to do another conversion course, emergency procedures, line checks etc). Same happened when CX SO went to KA to do their FO upgrades.

Fact is that CX wanted to have no dispatch area at all (they closed it during SARS as a cost savings), they wanted everyone to go straight to the aircraft (which CX trialed this years on a number of flights) as running the security clearance at CX city and KA house costs millions . They have reduced that now by having CX/KA share the same security screening. HKIA said they could not accept crews going straight to the aircraft for the foreseeable future due to T2 being demolished and T1 going into over load.

Do you know that the CX benefits center is being moved to KA house ? and all they will have in CX city is computer terminals for staff to interact with ? They are making it harder for staff to access benefits to reduce costs.

Everything is about reducing costs, not improving things for staff.
hkgfooey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Sep 2017, 06:14   #17 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,595
Still full of crap Fooey.
Gnadenburg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Sep 2017, 06:31   #18 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: In the land of smog
Posts: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkgfooey View Post
CX and KA do not get EQUAL staff travel benefits, KA get BETTER travel benefits, something the DPA negotiated behind the back of every CX pilot.
Would you mind letting me know the details are so we can start using this 'better deal' please?
TSIO540 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Sep 2017, 06:37   #19 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,595
Or let's do your Australia flying in exchange for China and see where your efficiencies lead to. And what kind of an industrial campaign has you so efficient btw?

The local contract is fast becoming dominant at KA. Our aircraft are being rapidly crewed in both seats in this manner. Is this the contract that is far superior to CX? Apples and oranges eh.
Gnadenburg is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14th Sep 2017, 06:37   #20 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkgfooey View Post
CX and KA do not get EQUAL staff travel benefits, KA get BETTER travel benefits, something the DPA negotiated behind the back of every CX pilot.

KA pilots gets paid more than CX pilots, have better benefits, and are more expensive and are less productive.

CX and KA share the same terminal as well, the same runways, etc fact that KA will be housed inside CX city means nothing. It is just sharing office space, KA guys are salivating at the bit and making rumors up.

Under CAD 360 each AOC holder must have its own briefing room. Each AOC holder MUST have their OWN pilots, you cannot "lead" pilots from one AOC holder to the other, they physically have to be inducted into the other AOC. That is exactly what has happened before when CX managers went to KA, when KA pilots came to CX (they had to do another conversion course, emergency procedures, line checks etc). Same happened when CX SO went to KA to do their FO upgrades.

Fact is that CX wanted to have no dispatch area at all (they closed it during SARS as a cost savings), they wanted everyone to go straight to the aircraft (which CX trialed this years on a number of flights) as running the security clearance at CX city and KA house costs millions . They have reduced that now by having CX/KA share the same security screening. HKIA said they could not accept crews going straight to the aircraft for the foreseeable future due to T2 being demolished and T1 going into over load.

Do you know that the CX benefits center is being moved to KA house ? and all they will have in CX city is computer terminals for staff to interact with ? They are making it harder for staff to access benefits to reduce costs.

Everything is about reducing costs, not improving things for staff.
Check Intra cx and ka's site.
It's the same travel scheme.
Staggers is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 06:22.


1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1