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Thirteen Reasons Why...

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Thirteen Reasons Why...

Old 11th May 2017, 14:45
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That is very well said HB and I think captures what folks have been saying for a long time. Fix the blame, don't fix the problem seems the order of the day--to the extent of finding completely unrelated fall guys or gals to punish in order to 'do something about it'. Power and position takes precedence over profit. To the extent of totally alienating a talented and extremely motivated work force (many of whom have pretty impressive resumes and would love to help out but have been so demoralized they are just marking time and squirreling away cash). It's better to pound the table and be right and lose money than admit you're wrong, fix things, and make money.

Took awhile for the loss of the protected market to kick in, but it's kicked in.

Perhaps it would be useful if someone were to carefully explain to the powers that be that "How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying" was a musical play and work of fiction, and not a successful blueprint to run a multi billion dollar corporation.

As far as stw, the propaganda is old and has eliminated any shadow of credibility.

Last edited by Shep69; 12th May 2017 at 12:30.
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Old 11th May 2017, 16:52
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As far as STW, he's probably management, and if he's not, then he should be. An apologist of the worst kind.
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Old 12th May 2017, 04:03
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Originally Posted by Will IB Fayed
HB,
Once the frequent transient passengers realise they need to add 30-45 mins per HK transit, they'll seek alternatives. EK/QF from Aus, ETC.
I agree (unfortunately). This airline is rapidly seeking it's own demise. :-(
Um, DXB is actually worse, but it seems they build in the time to the flight. Plan on at least an hour extra on the ground for taxi time on landing or taking off. If anyone ever needed more runways, it is DXB.
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Old 12th May 2017, 10:06
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Originally Posted by UNIFO
Simply because you Cathay and Dragon pilots are trying to avoid every moisture or rain to make yourself comfortable. As a result, many landing slots are wasted. I have seen one day every airlines is flying through the rain for an approach (Delta and Southern Air said light turbulence and rain), several BIG local airlines are insisting 50 miles off track. The delay just increase from 10 mins to 40 mins for no reason.
U dont fly me muchdo you? Calling BS. Delta i think wrote off 747 in the last couple of years cause they werent allowed to avoid "light turbulence and some rain". Best bit is avoiding a CB and watching some mainland carrier/air asia/jetstar plough straight thru a CB and then ask for wx avoidance when they are in it. And if you had flown for a mainland domestic carroer they tend to carry enough fuel to arrive at destination and turn around and fly back if wx is bad. Dont want to get docked salary for getting a lightning strike....

Personally landed during a typhoon and was lucky with no windshear warning while the 7 before all went around...one other behind me got in and then they gave up and closed the airport 30 mins later since everyone else couldnt land. So its not always light turb and some rain ....

So yeah BS is what i am callingon UNIFO
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Old 12th May 2017, 10:37
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Methinks STW is "The Management" reincarnated!
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Old 12th May 2017, 11:37
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Originally Posted by UNIFO
Simply because you Cathay and Dragon pilots are trying to avoid every moisture or rain to make yourself comfortable. As a result, many landing slots are wasted. I have seen one day every airlines is flying through the rain for an approach (Delta and Southern Air said light turbulence and rain), several BIG local airlines are insisting 50 miles off track. The delay just increase from 10 mins to 40 mins for no reason.
Oh please 🙄
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Old 12th May 2017, 15:11
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Don't think so Arthur, The Management was articulate and clever. STW is not!
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Old 12th May 2017, 23:09
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Yes - I think STW has been "Swired". Maybe he/she has been to Oxbridge. They do have a different "take" on life in my experience. Senior management in London who think a Zoology degree from Oxford qualifies one to be DFO are deluded. To follow that with a weak pilot is deluded. To follow that with another Oxford grad is simply ridiculous.
Has it worked? I don't think so………….
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Old 13th May 2017, 02:13
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PH,
my apologies, in my anger I wrongly addressed you,although I do not agree with your opinions in most cases it was not right of me getting personal.

Hannah, I totally disagree with your perspective, but I forgot my manners and did not use the proper words in my response, apologies.

I will rewrite my argument.
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Old 13th May 2017, 02:39
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Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong
PH,
my apologies, in my anger....
You are getting angry at posts that criticize the company?? Are sure you mentally fit to hold a medical?
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Old 13th May 2017, 04:00
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I'm pretty sure no one cares what you think or write STW, not even PH.
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Old 13th May 2017, 04:55
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13 reasons why your statement is flawed and meaningless.

1.) Total lack of reason

Everybody can claim everything. Everybody can accuse anybody of everything.
You, as the accuser, are carrying the 'burden of proof". That is the only rational way to argue in a civilised world. I read your statement multiple times. It does not contain one single piece of evidence or proof. Absolutely nothing but wild accusations, theories and generalizations.

2.) Total lack of tangibility

Not only do you ommit any reason, your accusations are so vague, so unspecific ( "missed opportunies", "culture of apathy") that there is no way to respond in a meaningful way. What missed opportunites? What culture of "apathy" ? I do not know your personal reasons for applying this vagueness, but this technique is a very common tool for populists.

3) Conialism can't be the reason for Cathay's present problems for multiple reasons.

Colonialism is a shared historic past of not only the entire Hong Kong economy , but half of the rest of the world. It is like claiming monarchy or the plague for problems at Johnsons and Johnsons. Hong Kongs companies ( and those of Singapore, Australia, NZ, US, Canada, SA) have been highly successful in the past and present, as Cathay has been until very recently. It makes no sense to blame a historic event for an individual current business crisis, none. Also see 1), where is your proof for your allegation?

3) "Silo mangement"

Have a look at Cathay's organigram. it is a very common company structure, I challenge you to identify any differences to similar companies. Your claim of a "vertical silo management" , which is in your opinion a "hallmark of CX" is a myth. Have a look at other companies, the organigrams are publicly available. Your accusation is unfounded and wrong.

You further claim Cathay's organisation is "highly territorial and bureaucratic ", being "solely concerned with one's own department's budget " and this would be "incredibly shortsighted and inefficient". Can you name a specific occurence, any recent event where this was evident? You also have to keep in mind that every organisation has problems, only mentioning this general fact is pointless. What is the alternative? No company is a democracy, and even democracies are not flawless. Do you have a specific plan in mind how to organise a company with thousands of employees, multiple franchises, global representions etc? I am happy to see your suggestions.

4) Lack of creativity of Cathay and the " Chinese" in general

An interesting argument from someone who is just reiterating cockpit gossip, but ok. What kind of "creative" solutions are missing? And what has Chinese history to do with it? Again, you are using a historic event ( Mao) plus racial stereotypes to support your "argument" Why are the so many Chinese companies so successful today? China as a country is much more successful than India for instance, which only 50 years ago was much richer. And even if you would be right, and it is all down to Mao, what is your conclusion? What can a company make more differently than Cathay, and NOT hiring Chinese managers predominantly? And regarding the "zoologist", he graduated from Oxbridge as far as I know, and it is very common to study a wide range before specialising.In the end he had 23 years (twenty-three years) of experience in the airline industry before becoming DFO. I am not saying he did a good job, but lack of experience or inferior education was surely not the problem. He was trained for decades by Swire for his career, he was an expert, that is a fact. And I say it again to make that absolutely clear, I am NOT saying he did a good job, i am just saying your argument is unfounded.By the way, a very common way to introduce creativity is by hiring people from other fields.

5) Contradictions

Maybe the most prominent concomitant of your text. You claim we need promotion from within but then also outside help, that does not make any sense. Also it it is absurd to think you would reduce profits of a company before selling it. Just a few points out of too many to quote.

6) Swire

Cathay has been owned by Swire for decades, but our problems are recent. You need to further support your claim, otherwise it makes no sense. See Mao.

7) Lack of accountability

I actually understand your critisism, it hurts to see a CEO getting a bonus and a nice golden hand shake when the company is suffering. I agree. BUT the company culture wasn't any different at better times. It can't be the reason for our current problems. Plus you have to admit that every time has it's unique problems. Is Ivan maybe just a scape goat? Could that be possible? Do we really know who made what decision? In the end this injustice is probably impossible to overcome, managers will always get away, and that is that. Pointless argument.


8. The HIGH COST OF LIVING in Hong Kong is "really hurting CX". No ****. Ok, what is your point here? You think "basing" is a solution ( erh, we do have basings actually. Much more than any other airline as far as I know).But ok, fair point, it could be more cost effective. but then it could not. Do you have the numbers? Did you calculate all the legal risks, holidays, tax, social costes etc etc? We will see in a few months if expat pilots in HK will indeed continue to be more expensive ( thanks to you guys not signing the contract, but that is another topic). To "hundreds of pilots living with their parents": first of all this is a general problem of Hong Kong, not only CX pilots, secondly many I talked to do so to save money. They could rent their own place, but rather save for a mortgage.
Then you offer "automation" as another solution. I assume you are not talking about pilots, or do you? I challenge you to give specific examples for possible replacements of humans in Cathay. I want to know where and whom. If you cannot provide this information you do not have an argument, plain and simple. Plus as we speak layoffs are in the pipeline..

9. Ignoring "Industry standards".Well, which airline would you have in mind that has better standards toward their employees? I challenge you to find any among our direct competitors. also, what exactly are "industry standards"? You are again very vague, it is impossible to argue and hence a pointless statement. You need to specify what you actually mean, and then you have to accept the fact that the 'industry standard" is exactly that, it is the common practise, NOT the ideal standard, I hope you see the crucial difference. An airline, any company, can only work within these ( lower and lower) standards unfortunately.

10.) Training

Training has been terrible at times the company excelled profit-wise, there is simply no (significant) correlation between the profitability of Cathay and it's training system. Yes, courses last a bit longer, albeit that has changed somewhat mind you, yes we had high failure rates, but they are quite ok at the moment actually. I will not defend the training system in general, not a big fan either, I am just saying it has nothing to do with the current crisis.

11) Power is more important than profits

Any specific example of your allegation? And, just for the sake of the argument, how do you know power is not more important than profit in some cases ? Again,you generalise without providing any reasonable examples.

12)Lawlessness

Yes, there have been many law suits. But that is just part of the business. Can you prove Cathay is facing more lawsuits than others? If they do, what is the legal system in the respective country? Can the employer sue the airline at all? Have a look elsewhere. People sue their employer all the time, then they get sued by customers, by tax authorities, about traffic rights,from the competition, they struggle with international law, bribery, etc etc. Ryan Air, the most valuable airline in Europe, is infamous for their bad relationship with their employees andcustomers, United just had a nearly fatal pr desaster and a subsequent settlement, dozens of cargo airlines have been fined, many airlines are facing strikes as we speak. Could the relationship be better with the employees? Yes, of course! But I challenge you to find a company that has a great time with their employees while facing a loss and layoffs, show me one please. And for CC, my opinion is well known. if it was for me, there would ne no CC, 5% payrise and another 3 years of housing plus major increase HKPA.

13) YOUR 13)

The conclusion is the most essential part of any essay, and it is no wonder you totally collapse trying to find any. Why does somebody commit suicide "because they can"? That does not answer anything, everybody can! So why only few do? Mind you, suicide is a willful act, are you suggesting there is such a will? Where? Why?

PS Cxorcist, if you read this you do care.
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Old 13th May 2017, 05:15
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STW. A thousand words that prove beyond any doubt that you are, a) a management apologist, and b) deluded. Do us all a favour and migrate to a different forum. You have no credibility, and you are only embarrassing yourself.
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Old 13th May 2017, 06:03
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Just block him/her.

Easy
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Old 13th May 2017, 12:58
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Originally Posted by Trafalgar
STW. A thousand words that prove beyond any doubt that you are, a) a management apologist, and b) deluded. Do us all a favour and migrate to a different forum. You have no credibility, and you are only embarrassing yourself.
Yup.

"Market Forces" are often claimed but everywhere ELSE airlines are paying quite well to hire and retain quality experienced individuals. Guess we're special.

Or are taking the airline down the path of a low cost regional without the cost structure to be able to support it with predictable results.

Basings represent a phenomenal opportunity to bring costs down (and, more importantly, keep them down; the upward spiraling costs of HKG don't show much sign of abating but the airline is betting the farm on being able to retain individuals on ever decreasing conditions). Yet the thought of actually having to make a deal, keep people happy, comply with a few rules, and lose the ability to impose, browbeat, and hit people with a stick is so repugnant to the powers that be it's not happening--when it needed to happen like the day before yesterday. Increasing base slots dramatically is a real no-brainer. Then again I guess you have to use a brain to begin with to see no-brainers.

The plan for the airline required quality service and expansion in order to work. Yet they've so alienated everyone working here they can't crew the jets properly--assets which are phenomenally expensive when they sit and don't earn their keep.

For some reason stw always seems to harp on 'proof'. Well, you don't have to look very far. A simple look at the last set of financials released shows nothing going in the right direction, and everything going in the wrong direction. That's proof enough for me.
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Old 13th May 2017, 14:19
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Not to mention the tone-deaf, amateurish sloganeering that now constitutes their idea of "time to win" . They honestly seem to think that a few inappropriate, ill-timed and comically ironic catch phrases can substitute for the hard work needed to get their employees back onside. Instead, we hear nothing other than the drive for more 'efficiency' and cost cutting. Well AT, I flew 900 hrs last year, and am on track for the same again this. How exactly am I supposed to be more efficient?? Perhaps you can do YOUR job and sort out this debacle of a rostering system so I don't have to call in sick just to get some time off. I guess the fact that most of the rest of the first world airline industry doing this much differently seems to have escaped your notice. This place is probably past the point of no return, not least because the same incompetent boobs that got us here are apparently the same incompetent boobs that are tasked with getting us out of the mess they created. What could possibly go wrong....
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Old 13th May 2017, 16:03
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As for paragraph 12.

CX will be getting a taste of the US court system this year as several court cases have been filed against them by US based employees. All the proposed cost savings by management will be gone if the court cases are won. Backpay, fines and damages add up fast in the US.
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Old 14th May 2017, 02:19
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Shep,

you are claiming: "Market Forces" are often claimed but everywhere ELSE airlines are paying quite well to hire and retain quality experienced individuals. Guess we're special.

Where would that be please?
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Old 14th May 2017, 04:00
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Originally Posted by Sam Ting Wong
Shep,

you are claiming: "Market Forces" are often claimed but everywhere ELSE airlines are paying quite well to hire and retain quality experienced individuals. Guess we're special.

Where would that be please?
Oh, just a few out of the way places....

UPS pilots say OK to labor deal, shower of cash

American Airlines is offering its pilots and flight attendants a raise - Apr. 26, 2017

Airline employees are getting huge pay raises - Aug. 26, 2016

Delta Air Lines | AirlinePilotCentral.com

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/...e-new-contract
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Old 14th May 2017, 04:20
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Ok, fair point. Some US airlines do pay quite well and in general the US seem to be a good place right now. If you have the hours, you like the base, don't work for a commuter.

What if you don't have a green card?
( I never met an American S/O)
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