Hong Kong Airlines (HKA)
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Flyer 25
I think you're in a dilemma mate, obviously, you do not know the actual running's of HKA, you pick up a few bits and pieces here and there and misconstrued the entire issue.
Question:
1. Would you rather be paid for a standby or not? That's an easy one
2. If you are desperate for days OFF or have more free time, would you prefer an additional day or not?
Hence, the ''O'' day. Other Airlines a far more cunning, as they don't pay for available days or O days, they'll just convert it to a SBY for Free to the company.
As for your assumed CCQ - Firstly, there's no CCQ for the A350, its only available at the moment for Current A330 Type Rated guys, they attend a CTR to qualify for A330/A350 licence endorsement as a Common Type.
So, no DEC's! or FO's.
therefore, do us a favor, I think HKA doing a good job indeed, no one is perfect anywhere.
So, if you want to know eactly whats happening, PM and i'll most certainly let you know before you blast the world with nonsense.
Thanks and have a lovely April Fools
Question:
1. Would you rather be paid for a standby or not? That's an easy one
2. If you are desperate for days OFF or have more free time, would you prefer an additional day or not?
Hence, the ''O'' day. Other Airlines a far more cunning, as they don't pay for available days or O days, they'll just convert it to a SBY for Free to the company.
As for your assumed CCQ - Firstly, there's no CCQ for the A350, its only available at the moment for Current A330 Type Rated guys, they attend a CTR to qualify for A330/A350 licence endorsement as a Common Type.
So, no DEC's! or FO's.
therefore, do us a favor, I think HKA doing a good job indeed, no one is perfect anywhere.
So, if you want to know eactly whats happening, PM and i'll most certainly let you know before you blast the world with nonsense.
Thanks and have a lovely April Fools
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Ahhh Below the Glide
Misconstrued or bits. I worked for HKA and still have many friends there so I have no need to PM you;maybe you should PM me if you need a few things answered.
Yes, you are right the A350 is a common type to the A330 and you do not have to CCQ. You are exactly right and I misspoke in that regard. But much of HKA's A350 program was copied from Cathay as they were the first to get the aircraft in Hong Kong. But you will have to take transition/diff course to get to A350 at HKA.
Yes, as far as I am aware, they don't currently have DEC or DEFO to the A350 as the aircraft isn't even on property yet.
And indeed, I have never made an assertion that any job is perfect. However, I have pretty good info having worked there and can certainly correct any information I put out. I would read some of previous post regarding HKA before throwing your 2 cents. But I imagine you are probably management or just one of those guys who never reads the previous posts before commenting and making assumptions.
Misconstrued or bits. I worked for HKA and still have many friends there so I have no need to PM you;maybe you should PM me if you need a few things answered.
Yes, you are right the A350 is a common type to the A330 and you do not have to CCQ. You are exactly right and I misspoke in that regard. But much of HKA's A350 program was copied from Cathay as they were the first to get the aircraft in Hong Kong. But you will have to take transition/diff course to get to A350 at HKA.
Yes, as far as I am aware, they don't currently have DEC or DEFO to the A350 as the aircraft isn't even on property yet.
And indeed, I have never made an assertion that any job is perfect. However, I have pretty good info having worked there and can certainly correct any information I put out. I would read some of previous post regarding HKA before throwing your 2 cents. But I imagine you are probably management or just one of those guys who never reads the previous posts before commenting and making assumptions.
Last edited by flyer25; 2nd Apr 2017 at 02:34.
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A330 Sched Sample
A previous post wanted an example of the A330 schedule during a month. This is an example, I have crop to protect the innocent. The O days again are a new scheme by the company to get around paying for STBY days. These days were likely STBY days originally and then covered to O days which can be converted back at the companies discretion. STBY days are now being paid by the company in previous years they were not, but you can read my previous post regarding this issue. The major issue being that these STBY days were previous used simply to not give pilots days off. Often you would 10 to 20 people on STBY for the same day which was ridiculous when I worked for HKA. This is actually a pretty good schedule at HKA, I was a bit surprised but everyone can have very different monthly schedules. But again, read my previous post.
Last edited by flyer25; 2nd Apr 2017 at 02:36.
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addendum to previous post
This is addendum to my previous post regarding the current internal requirements for the A350 when it's on property at HKA. You can see that at the moment, it's likely that you will not be able to immediately join and go right to the A350. However, in the future once they have a few A350s on property they will likely take DECs and DEFOs.
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Flyer, you're missing the real scandal here.
HKA is demanding a 2 Year Bond of 25K USD for that non-existent CCQ course!
For what? A differences course?
And that's USD by the way - not HKD.
Why price it in USD I wonder? Is it because it sounds like a shed load more when you write 200,000HKD? Maybe they don't trust the HKD/USD peg?
This Bond (if even legal in HKG) applies equally to a guy who just strolled in the door and goes straight on the (new) rating as it does to a long serving pilot.
That's how much they value loyalty. Zilch.
No loyalty among thieving pilots I hear you say 'Below the Glide'? But HKA is GREAT isn't it? Who would want to leave?
I think a lot of HKA guys will take a long hard look at this deal. They'll already be feeling irked because the cost of a (actual) CCQ course was previously contracted at 15K USD, until just last week, when they upped it to 25K at the stroke of a pen!
Many will also be thinking that this is no great deal when they know they will operate mixed fleet flying with the 330. If it was a standalone 350 fleet you might be looking at increased time off as a result of the longhaul sectors. But no - you will be doing the same old local flights too, and knowing how the rosters are operated in HKA you could well find yourself getting no 350 trips for a while if you've been a bit 'naughty' and upset the wrong office clerk.
Never mind. If you don't want it the next guy will grab it. No Seniority in HKA remember.
But imagine if nobody volunteered? Now that would be funny.
Another shot in the foot by HKA HR.
HKA is demanding a 2 Year Bond of 25K USD for that non-existent CCQ course!
For what? A differences course?
And that's USD by the way - not HKD.
Why price it in USD I wonder? Is it because it sounds like a shed load more when you write 200,000HKD? Maybe they don't trust the HKD/USD peg?
This Bond (if even legal in HKG) applies equally to a guy who just strolled in the door and goes straight on the (new) rating as it does to a long serving pilot.
That's how much they value loyalty. Zilch.
No loyalty among thieving pilots I hear you say 'Below the Glide'? But HKA is GREAT isn't it? Who would want to leave?
I think a lot of HKA guys will take a long hard look at this deal. They'll already be feeling irked because the cost of a (actual) CCQ course was previously contracted at 15K USD, until just last week, when they upped it to 25K at the stroke of a pen!
Many will also be thinking that this is no great deal when they know they will operate mixed fleet flying with the 330. If it was a standalone 350 fleet you might be looking at increased time off as a result of the longhaul sectors. But no - you will be doing the same old local flights too, and knowing how the rosters are operated in HKA you could well find yourself getting no 350 trips for a while if you've been a bit 'naughty' and upset the wrong office clerk.
Never mind. If you don't want it the next guy will grab it. No Seniority in HKA remember.
But imagine if nobody volunteered? Now that would be funny.
Another shot in the foot by HKA HR.
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HKA Bonding
No doubt the bonding is a bit ridiculous, but it's not legally enforceable in HK court. But if you want to use the company as a reference, they can also claim that you skipped out on the bond with the new company or if you want to work for a Hainan company in the mainland then this would prohibit that for sure. When I left, I know that you can ask for a waiver for the remaining bonding if you have some amount left otherwise, its deducted from your final pay check. But your last pay is also held until you pay the taxes as calculated by the company. When I was there to CCQ to the A330 was 1 year 15k USD bond. This is why some guys, if they are not coming back to Hk leave on the 29th since you are paid on the 28th. But make sure transfer the money from ur account
Like I said in previous post, there are people who have accepted things by laying low. But most plan to leave. I know two guys this week who asked me to refer any opportunities that I may know or come across to them so they can leave HKA. In the last 2 years I was there, a lot of new joiners i.e. Captains just wanted the A330 type and PIC time so they can go to other opportunities. HKA is just a place you go if you need a gig to find a better gig if those still exist anymore in the pilot world; few an far between sometimes.
Like I said in previous post, there are people who have accepted things by laying low. But most plan to leave. I know two guys this week who asked me to refer any opportunities that I may know or come across to them so they can leave HKA. In the last 2 years I was there, a lot of new joiners i.e. Captains just wanted the A330 type and PIC time so they can go to other opportunities. HKA is just a place you go if you need a gig to find a better gig if those still exist anymore in the pilot world; few an far between sometimes.
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Don't forget also that these A350's are brand new aircraft direct from Airbus. That means each one of them will include Pilot Training subsidies/courses from Airbus. So in fact there's no need to charge pilots a cent for the first batch of conversions.
The sole reason for these bonds is to force pilots to remain at HKA in spite of whatever dirty moves they pull next on you. If hka was a genuine career employer they wouldn't need to resort to such trickery.
The sole reason for these bonds is to force pilots to remain at HKA in spite of whatever dirty moves they pull next on you. If hka was a genuine career employer they wouldn't need to resort to such trickery.
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Hello, I went to road show in Lima and still waiting for the final result, I heard that people receive feedback in few days, but the assessment was few weeks ago and no feedback yet, anyone here in the same situation???
One could also face arrest if transiting HKG for non payment of taxes as tax liabilities are due prior to leaving HKG. Then there is the matter of your mandatory provident fund you will not be able to access.
Look at section 32 of the employment ordinance under "Deductions from wages", it says "(f) deductions, with the written consent of an employee, for the recovery of any loan made by the employer to the employee"
While the term you thrown around is bond, the document signed will be a loan in Hong Kong. Given you have gone through the soliciting information for the benefits, agreed to the terms, and signed, it forms a contract.
Then have a look at the Foreign Judgments (Reciprocal Enforcement) ordance and you will see that a Hong Kong employer can then come after you in foreign jurisdictions. They will thank you for also picking up the legal fees on top of what you owe.
By all means accept on face value what you read on pprune, it is your money. Why spend it on legal advice when you have been told otherwise by an anonymous pilot.
While the term you thrown around is bond, the document signed will be a loan in Hong Kong. Given you have gone through the soliciting information for the benefits, agreed to the terms, and signed, it forms a contract.
Then have a look at the Foreign Judgments (Reciprocal Enforcement) ordance and you will see that a Hong Kong employer can then come after you in foreign jurisdictions. They will thank you for also picking up the legal fees on top of what you owe.
By all means accept on face value what you read on pprune, it is your money. Why spend it on legal advice when you have been told otherwise by an anonymous pilot.
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Relax, no one on this forum has claimed to be a lawyer or dishing out legal advice. Understanding the web of laws in Hong Kong is a nightmare so consult a lawyer if you like. It's not a bad idea and sound advice. But we are all anonymous pilots relaying what we have heard or experienced or what we have witnessed first hand and/or can attest to it or even provide proof sometimes. Some of it is hearsay or suppositions or assumptions or occasionally, the educated guess or deductive reasoning.
I doubt anyone should walk away from anything on the internet whether it's on the this site or somewhere else without doing a bit of research or follow up. If not, like anything in life, you might get crappy information. But I think often, the utility of these sites is to spark conversation that may lead to people, in this case pilots, to go out and do a bit of research on the topic or subject. Again, with all things in life, sometimes everything is not a 100% accurate. But maybe we can all agree that where there is smoke, sometimes there is a fire and it's up to the individual whether to take the smoke as verification;or maybe to inspect the scene more closely to get secondary evidence. As is the case with this forum, I hardly doubt that when you see dozens of post from people that say the same things, that they are all just crazy, in some way they are all testifying to the same thing.
It's funny to me years later having been advised or read things on forums. Finding it completely accurate or very close to accurate when I finally witness it myself. Things I heard about Cathay, a good portion of it was pretty spot on or KA or HKA or HKE or China. I will soon put out my version of my take on life in flying for a Chinese Company. I think at least it will give a perspective of things that might help guys and gals prepare for the plunge before they arrive in China for those "high paying job." Part of it for me is a bit cathartic I must confess. But just like a gold rush, even when the gold mines stop producing, you will always have people coming with shovels to prove that there is still gold. We are just always hopeful as human being sometimes we just have to see for ourselves.
But with regard to bonds, generally, my experience with HKA is that they don't waste the money trying to track you down and the answer I think lies in the fact they can not enforce the bond in court. But this is just what I have heard from many sources and what I have witness while at the company. But I do believe, they might be able to twist the contract language or invoke parts of the contract language to spin the bond issue into some other financial obligation e.g. a loan. Yes, I agree, I am not lawyer. But based on my understanding having worked in Hong Kong for a number years, the bond isn't legal. But I am sure they might have other means if they wanted to run into court to try to pursue you on other grounds. In fact, generally speaking, I think you can probably run into court in a good portion of the world and file something against anyone for anything. Whether you prevail in the long run is another issue. In the world we live in, most western countries have seeded all governance to the corporatocracy who can do whatever they want. I have no doubt that the laws are written in some way that companies can find ways to touch you if they really wanted to. However, your argument is a bit one sided in the matter because it leaves out the idea that a pilot would be able to file a counter claim or grievance in court regarding many possible unfair work related issues. HKA just lost a recent labor case in court so it's not just a one sided issue. The corporatocracy may have an army of lawyers but they are generally expensive ones. But even if bonds were legal in Hong Kong, which I and many people say is it's not (consult a lawyer or just leave with your final pay check in hand), there is no need to drop a MOWAB costing millions on 5 low level Taliban out in field, if you don't have to. Generally, when guys and gals leave, they leave somewhere in the middle or later stages of their contracts so the bond is supposedly reduced every month from your line check. So, you do the math, is it worth for the company. In my experience, cases take a long time in HK courts and especially from observation in Mainland China. Now you introduce a cross jurisdiction case to track down someone you may not even know where find to begin with and who knows how long you have before you recover. But I have a friend who says he was happier flying in another S.E. Asia country for less money. Well, this particular country I think you would have a very hard time collecting anything and spend a crap load of money to make a point not worth proving. At least at HKA, most of the pilot are not from Europe or America, not even close, most are from local countries Philippines, Malaysia, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc Places that from observation MAY have cross border corporation on major things like murders or treason or spying etc ; but for tracking down one guy to recover a portion of a remaining bond issue assuming it were legal. yeah, I am thinking it is a bit of an uphill climb.
I doubt anyone should walk away from anything on the internet whether it's on the this site or somewhere else without doing a bit of research or follow up. If not, like anything in life, you might get crappy information. But I think often, the utility of these sites is to spark conversation that may lead to people, in this case pilots, to go out and do a bit of research on the topic or subject. Again, with all things in life, sometimes everything is not a 100% accurate. But maybe we can all agree that where there is smoke, sometimes there is a fire and it's up to the individual whether to take the smoke as verification;or maybe to inspect the scene more closely to get secondary evidence. As is the case with this forum, I hardly doubt that when you see dozens of post from people that say the same things, that they are all just crazy, in some way they are all testifying to the same thing.
It's funny to me years later having been advised or read things on forums. Finding it completely accurate or very close to accurate when I finally witness it myself. Things I heard about Cathay, a good portion of it was pretty spot on or KA or HKA or HKE or China. I will soon put out my version of my take on life in flying for a Chinese Company. I think at least it will give a perspective of things that might help guys and gals prepare for the plunge before they arrive in China for those "high paying job." Part of it for me is a bit cathartic I must confess. But just like a gold rush, even when the gold mines stop producing, you will always have people coming with shovels to prove that there is still gold. We are just always hopeful as human being sometimes we just have to see for ourselves.
But with regard to bonds, generally, my experience with HKA is that they don't waste the money trying to track you down and the answer I think lies in the fact they can not enforce the bond in court. But this is just what I have heard from many sources and what I have witness while at the company. But I do believe, they might be able to twist the contract language or invoke parts of the contract language to spin the bond issue into some other financial obligation e.g. a loan. Yes, I agree, I am not lawyer. But based on my understanding having worked in Hong Kong for a number years, the bond isn't legal. But I am sure they might have other means if they wanted to run into court to try to pursue you on other grounds. In fact, generally speaking, I think you can probably run into court in a good portion of the world and file something against anyone for anything. Whether you prevail in the long run is another issue. In the world we live in, most western countries have seeded all governance to the corporatocracy who can do whatever they want. I have no doubt that the laws are written in some way that companies can find ways to touch you if they really wanted to. However, your argument is a bit one sided in the matter because it leaves out the idea that a pilot would be able to file a counter claim or grievance in court regarding many possible unfair work related issues. HKA just lost a recent labor case in court so it's not just a one sided issue. The corporatocracy may have an army of lawyers but they are generally expensive ones. But even if bonds were legal in Hong Kong, which I and many people say is it's not (consult a lawyer or just leave with your final pay check in hand), there is no need to drop a MOWAB costing millions on 5 low level Taliban out in field, if you don't have to. Generally, when guys and gals leave, they leave somewhere in the middle or later stages of their contracts so the bond is supposedly reduced every month from your line check. So, you do the math, is it worth for the company. In my experience, cases take a long time in HK courts and especially from observation in Mainland China. Now you introduce a cross jurisdiction case to track down someone you may not even know where find to begin with and who knows how long you have before you recover. But I have a friend who says he was happier flying in another S.E. Asia country for less money. Well, this particular country I think you would have a very hard time collecting anything and spend a crap load of money to make a point not worth proving. At least at HKA, most of the pilot are not from Europe or America, not even close, most are from local countries Philippines, Malaysia, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc Places that from observation MAY have cross border corporation on major things like murders or treason or spying etc ; but for tracking down one guy to recover a portion of a remaining bond issue assuming it were legal. yeah, I am thinking it is a bit of an uphill climb.
An uphill climb ?
Last edited by MENELAUS; 8th May 2017 at 05:09. Reason: Thick fingers
