KA A320 does unfavorable diversion
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What is there to discuss? Really?
The captain made a bad choice. Why did he chose not to land at MNL, a suitable airport? What can we learn from his mistake?
Everyone can have a bad day. Even a captain. But this decision does not appear reasonable. The plane did land. Everyone was safe. But the choice exposed all to needles risk.
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If we don't want to expose ourselves to needless risk we should probably stay in bed instead of flying around complex machinery. At the end of the day they had a single failure for which the manufacturer does not deem it necessary to warrant a landing at the nearest suitable airport.
This should normally give us a pretty good indication as to the risks involved in handling this single system failure. You can disagree with the decision, but as far as Airbus is concerned he could've taken it up to Hong Kong. So how come this is such a hugely bad decision?
This should normally give us a pretty good indication as to the risks involved in handling this single system failure. You can disagree with the decision, but as far as Airbus is concerned he could've taken it up to Hong Kong. So how come this is such a hugely bad decision?
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This is a fair question. I am not claiming that given the circumstances the most optimal decision was made. That being said, calling it an outright bad or unsafe decision goes too far. From the manufacturers perspective their decision was perfectly legitimate (Or I'm reading the wrong FCOM's). It might not have been the most optimal outcome commercially, but an acceptable one surely? The passengers ended up where they started instead of somewhere half way. I've had worse days out.
its�5perworddammit
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What was the weather in MNL? HK?
What would you lose in terms of stopping capability with the hyd failure?
I would refrain from armchair quarterbacking without more facts.
What would you lose in terms of stopping capability with the hyd failure?
I would refrain from armchair quarterbacking without more facts.
Gnadenburg,
What if that ERA was a full 40 minutes closer and the company were asking you to go there?
What if that ERA was a full 40 minutes closer and the company were asking you to go there?
But that's not a reasonable nor acceptable substitution under a Just Culture. I'm not a brand new Capt, who's just come out of a TRG program, that even I recall over does it on needless communication, to support decision making from interfering and sometimes unhelpful parties ( IOC/DOM ) - versus autonomous decision making.
Now, since you all bleat about a Just Culture, if you don't like the decision made, the traditional JC model suggests a substitution test with pilots of similar experience ie: brand new Capt ex-cadet background. If the decision is inconsistent, this reflects on the system- insufficient or inappropriate command training, experience levels and background and selection process.
Try and refrain from putting a colleague to the sword.
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 31st Aug 2016 at 03:56.
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Yonosoy. Yes, he is one of us. Yes, he has our support. However, flying the extra distance/time with a major malfunction is a BAD decision.
There was no bent metal and no singed hairs.
We all have bad days, and we're all liable to make a potentially subpar decision once in a while. If, god forbids, that ever happens to you, the emasculating sh*tstorm you'll weather from your superior will be enough to make you feel like crap without having all of your colleagues armchair-quarterbacking your decision and dissing you out on the internet.
Unless you're the sorry guy in management whose job it is to tell his fellow pilots 'shudda cudda wudda' 3 days after the facts, why don't we show support for a friend, imagining it could happen to any of us one day.
Or are you cocky enough that you think you'll never make a bad decision?
Try and refrain from putting a colleague to the sword.
MY personal reference to it being a bad decision stands based on the the alleged reason being that this major international airfield with approaches and long runways was "ufamiliar."
Yes there may be other facts, yes there may be weather enroute - and if so maybe it was a decent decision. But the reason stated earlier was that he just didnt want to go to Manilla because he was unfamiliar - and if that is the reason, then he sorely needs more training.
Yes there may be other facts, yes there may be weather enroute - and if so maybe it was a decent decision. But the reason stated earlier was that he just didnt want to go to Manilla because he was unfamiliar - and if that is the reason, then he sorely needs more training.
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If a man does his best, the aircraft lands safely, what else is there?
There are hundreds of ways to skin a cat.
Don't charge anyone until you've been in their position.
There are hundreds of ways to skin a cat.
Don't charge anyone until you've been in their position.
Last edited by tsimbeit; 31st Aug 2016 at 05:11.
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We can all have bad days and make bad decisions. But if he chose to avoid a major on-line international airport (and the weather was good) because "I am not familiar" then he would not appear to be ready for command. The fact the outcome was not tragic does not make the decision adequate.
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We can all have bad days and make bad decisions. But if he chose to avoid a major on-line international airport (and the weather was good) because "I am not familiar" then he would not appear to be ready for command. The fact the outcome was not tragic does not make the decision adequate.
Molto respetta, Don Pain, we love our capo di tuttii crapi!
What a besserwisser!
As they say, a small stone in an empty cask makes a lot of noise.
You can always pick out insecure people, by listening to how many backhanded compliments and subtle insults they hand out. The people who try and act like they have it all together are usually the biggest messes!!
If a man does his best, the aircraft lands safely, what else is there?
There are hundreds of ways to skin a cat.
Don't charge anyone until you've been in their position.
And if anyone think that cadets and locals are not part of the future of this airline, just wait and see. Please don't feel too insecure....
Last edited by tsimbeit; 31st Aug 2016 at 19:03.
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"If a man does his best, the aircraft lands safely, what else is there?"
Ok then, using that argument, there was a case a few years ago in indo where the crew landed at the completely wrong airport. They did their best and landed safely though. No problems there at all according to your theory.
Ok then, using that argument, there was a case a few years ago in indo where the crew landed at the completely wrong airport. They did their best and landed safely though. No problems there at all according to your theory.
tsimbeit
Obviously the pilot in question is a great kid, whom you like, hence you are passionately defending. But you are clearly an idiot.
The decision making process involves a lot more than the outcome being an aircraft safely on the ground. Under your flawed argument, what if he decided to go to Kunming. Would you call that a good decision? Hey, the aircraft is on the ground safely.....so it must have been a decent decision, right??!!
I hope you are not a Captain, because if I was in the back of the sim and you chose to avoid a perfectly suitable airport to go somewhere much further away, just because you had not been there before, you would get a big fat fail.
Obviously the pilot in question is a great kid, whom you like, hence you are passionately defending. But you are clearly an idiot.
The decision making process involves a lot more than the outcome being an aircraft safely on the ground. Under your flawed argument, what if he decided to go to Kunming. Would you call that a good decision? Hey, the aircraft is on the ground safely.....so it must have been a decent decision, right??!!
I hope you are not a Captain, because if I was in the back of the sim and you chose to avoid a perfectly suitable airport to go somewhere much further away, just because you had not been there before, you would get a big fat fail.
99% of Captains realize this was a bad decision. The 1% that think this was a good decision should not be in command of an airliner. Period
The plan from day one, was to create a Hong Kong airline run by locals, with the original experienced expats passing on their skills and knowledge to cadets and other staff.
"KA's a training airline turning cadets into commanders", correct but that's where it stops.
The local group of pilots have completely missed out on the experience to be gained from participating in training, flight operations management, DPA committee work (negotiations and other business).
Where is the integration after all these 30+ years?
"KA's a training airline turning cadets into commanders", correct but that's where it stops.
The local group of pilots have completely missed out on the experience to be gained from participating in training, flight operations management, DPA committee work (negotiations and other business).
Where is the integration after all these 30+ years?
Your axe to grind is worthy of another thread. But frankly, your concept of localization is manifesting itself right here, right now. We will struggle to meet essential expansion for the group with the recruitment and renumeration policies of the last 5 years.
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Rodney rule, I'm interested on what point you would actually fail him on? It's my understanding that this tech fault is not mandated as a land at nearest suitable alternate? So, if a crew went through a suitable decision making process and made a similar decision,which had a similar outcome; what is basis of your big fat fail? are you even a TRE or TRI? If so then surely you will remember the phrase "was the safe outcome of the flight ever in doubt", as your deal breaker if a pass is marginal. Without having all the facts myself, I can't for the life of me see how the safe outcome of this flight was ever in doubt.
Admittedly, I am a TRE for BA and not Cathay where the pass fail yardstick might be totally different. Personally I detect a strong degree of aggressiveness amongst more experienced Captains in this part of prune towards fellow colleagues with less experience than anywhere else.
If however the problem had been land at nearest suitable, then it changes the dynamic somewhat.
Overall, I would guess that your tone and content of your postings would be drastically different if you had to put your name to your posts instead of this anonymous cyber world, where we can all be the best pilot with the most knowledge.
Admittedly, I am a TRE for BA and not Cathay where the pass fail yardstick might be totally different. Personally I detect a strong degree of aggressiveness amongst more experienced Captains in this part of prune towards fellow colleagues with less experience than anywhere else.
If however the problem had been land at nearest suitable, then it changes the dynamic somewhat.
Overall, I would guess that your tone and content of your postings would be drastically different if you had to put your name to your posts instead of this anonymous cyber world, where we can all be the best pilot with the most knowledge.
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A couple of points.
MNL isn't a KA port and doesn't have approved 320 maintenance facilities. Clarke is a KA port but again no maintenance ( KA 320s go to many ports without approved maintenance facilities )
BKI has eng and was the closest port with it.
If I remember rightly. Single hydraulic loss not a land ASAP. Overheat you turn the pump off. You can put it on again when the temp comes down.
It's probably not the decision I would have made but it was safe and BKI is not a bad place for an unscheduled stop.
I think you guys are being a bit harsh.
MNL isn't a KA port and doesn't have approved 320 maintenance facilities. Clarke is a KA port but again no maintenance ( KA 320s go to many ports without approved maintenance facilities )
BKI has eng and was the closest port with it.
If I remember rightly. Single hydraulic loss not a land ASAP. Overheat you turn the pump off. You can put it on again when the temp comes down.
It's probably not the decision I would have made but it was safe and BKI is not a bad place for an unscheduled stop.
I think you guys are being a bit harsh.
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3 greens, very good post.
You are absolutely correct in observing a strong arrogance against pilots with less experience.
It's a fascist regime that's what it is, and people seem to enjoy it.
You are absolutely correct in observing a strong arrogance against pilots with less experience.
It's a fascist regime that's what it is, and people seem to enjoy it.