Victory is in sight
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And like a box of chocolate, they will be so good (like before) that not only will attrition be minimal, they will require minimal training and be ready to go at a moments notice.
You are a goddamn genius Xwind. This is the most outstanding answer I have ever heard. You must have a goddamn I.Q. of 160. You are goddamn gifted!
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Mrfox,
If you think there wouldn't be a flood of guys who would take direct entry spots, especially on bases, then you've got rocks in your head. It would be a huge win for the company if they could justify doing something like that. You're right that it would take time to get it going, but once it's in place it will be here for the long term and we'll still be doing 3 man long haul anyway.
If you think there wouldn't be a flood of guys who would take direct entry spots, especially on bases, then you've got rocks in your head. It would be a huge win for the company if they could justify doing something like that. You're right that it would take time to get it going, but once it's in place it will be here for the long term and we'll still be doing 3 man long haul anyway.
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I'm so sorry, but I have to take the bait!
I personally know of three ex-military types who have recently left their Service. Traditionally these people are smack-bang in the middle of the experience/age bracket for Cathay.
They didn't even apply to CX!! Where did they go, then, you ask?
One to China (Aus base and more money), one to Japan and the last to Tiger (so he could continue his Reservist flying).
If AT thinks recruiting directly onto a base will work (enough to make a difference), she (and you, xwingldg) is mistaken. People are just not interested because the true state of affairs here is finally becoming known.
I personally know of three ex-military types who have recently left their Service. Traditionally these people are smack-bang in the middle of the experience/age bracket for Cathay.
They didn't even apply to CX!! Where did they go, then, you ask?
One to China (Aus base and more money), one to Japan and the last to Tiger (so he could continue his Reservist flying).
If AT thinks recruiting directly onto a base will work (enough to make a difference), she (and you, xwingldg) is mistaken. People are just not interested because the true state of affairs here is finally becoming known.
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WHY (???) do people rise to the bait of morons like this? Ignore it. Either he's a bitter newbie, or a management plant. Either way, why give it any more oxygen. Don't do or say anything that will give this management an ounce of comfort.
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So Trafalgar, when everybody else comments, it's "rising to the bait". Presumably you consider that your post is different... wise words from an elder statesman? Maybe take your own advice and/or get off the pedalstool
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Mrfox,
If you think there wouldn't be a flood of guys who would take direct entry spots, especially on bases, then you've got rocks in your head. It would be a huge win for the company if they could justify doing something like that. You're right that it would take time to get it going, but once it's in place it will be here for the long term and we'll still be doing 3 man long haul anyway.
If you think there wouldn't be a flood of guys who would take direct entry spots, especially on bases, then you've got rocks in your head. It would be a huge win for the company if they could justify doing something like that. You're right that it would take time to get it going, but once it's in place it will be here for the long term and we'll still be doing 3 man long haul anyway.
There will be guys who will come for the hours, the shiny jets, and a foot in the door. They will leave once they qualify for something shinier, though. I mean its not like they have senority vested. Thank goodness we have a robust training system with the capacity to deal with the turnover.
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Xwindldg/Milking a mouse,
Whoever you want to be this week, we get it that your job is to wind the crew crew up so they will come to the table.
You were also the ones telling us that KA getting the same staff travel on CX was a benefit to CX. You were also the one saying "The sooner you arrogant, sexist, homophobic, racist pricks die out the better. Perhaps then the professional could be put into 'professionalism' with regard to our industry. Putting an end to the ill-informed, lay the boot in, devour your own drivel that has filled this thread. "
We all know how recruiting works, hiring someone takes months, providing notice takes months, getting a CAD letter for conversion terms of an overseas licence is taking over 6 months. Adelaide is full, and new pilots joining the company are being turned away for 6-12 months at a time after finishing Adelaide as there is no one to do their conversion.
A 20 something year old cadet would swallow this, but attracting an experienced pilot with a mortgage, family and bills to pay, and reading the forums on pprune will soon realize that CX is not the place they would want to be.
Anyone with more than half a brain would put 2+ 2 together, if they are willing to screw over people with 30, 20, 10, 5 years of service with the employer. What sort of loyalty will they provide a new joiner on probation ?
Where is the stability ?
Why would you join CX on a base when they are paying significantly less than competition ?
Oh, and thanks to that wonderful idea of joining staff travel lists, those new pilots would not even get priority travel on their own airline.
Did you hear Republic Airways filed for bankruptcy because they could not get pilots, do you see the numbers of pilots being recruited worldwide at the moment ?
Big players in industry all over the world all wanting experienced pilots, and not one or two, it is hundreds and thousands.
Boeing has a production backlog of 5740 aircraft and Airbus over 6787, where do you think the 150,000 experienced pilots needed to fly those aircraft are going to come from ? Employers that treat their employees like crap and pay below industry pay and benefits.
Whoever you want to be this week, we get it that your job is to wind the crew crew up so they will come to the table.
You were also the ones telling us that KA getting the same staff travel on CX was a benefit to CX. You were also the one saying "The sooner you arrogant, sexist, homophobic, racist pricks die out the better. Perhaps then the professional could be put into 'professionalism' with regard to our industry. Putting an end to the ill-informed, lay the boot in, devour your own drivel that has filled this thread. "
We all know how recruiting works, hiring someone takes months, providing notice takes months, getting a CAD letter for conversion terms of an overseas licence is taking over 6 months. Adelaide is full, and new pilots joining the company are being turned away for 6-12 months at a time after finishing Adelaide as there is no one to do their conversion.
A 20 something year old cadet would swallow this, but attracting an experienced pilot with a mortgage, family and bills to pay, and reading the forums on pprune will soon realize that CX is not the place they would want to be.
Anyone with more than half a brain would put 2+ 2 together, if they are willing to screw over people with 30, 20, 10, 5 years of service with the employer. What sort of loyalty will they provide a new joiner on probation ?
Where is the stability ?
Why would you join CX on a base when they are paying significantly less than competition ?
Oh, and thanks to that wonderful idea of joining staff travel lists, those new pilots would not even get priority travel on their own airline.
Did you hear Republic Airways filed for bankruptcy because they could not get pilots, do you see the numbers of pilots being recruited worldwide at the moment ?
Big players in industry all over the world all wanting experienced pilots, and not one or two, it is hundreds and thousands.
Boeing has a production backlog of 5740 aircraft and Airbus over 6787, where do you think the 150,000 experienced pilots needed to fly those aircraft are going to come from ? Employers that treat their employees like crap and pay below industry pay and benefits.
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Bet he IS some type of management stooge/plant. It'd be just like them to try to get by on the cheap and not even be able to get a troll right.
Other than learn english, ya have to ease into it, son. Come in generally agreeing with just a bit of a dissent on some of the possibilities. Pretend to be one of the fellers and then start a gradual shift. Bat things around a bit--be on 'our' side--then start shifting the argument bit by bit into the wacko ideas.
Go back, give it some thought, do some internet research on how real pilots talk and practice it with a friend, get a new handle, and give it another try.
Good luck--and I mean that sincerely. Like to see how you do it. Folks here are pretty used to an entity thats an expert in manipulation and deception--an entity that talks at times with extreme truth then seamlessly shifts (sometimes within the same thought train) to extreme deception. That hires high achievers (who equate professional failure here with professional failure somewhere else or in life when nothing could be further from the truth) and then dangles the fleeting carrot (base openings, some cosmic rostering system that fixes everything, magic airplane deliveries, upgrades, improvements in quality of life, long call reserve, pay rises over inflation, etc.) just a wee bit beyond arm's reach while things gradually decline. Investing a great portion of one's life into something (sometimes at the expense of other really, really good and important things) only to find out much later it isn't what they thought it was (or at least had been once upon a time--maybe this is why some come back as sim instructors).
Only this time they've overplayed their hand--too much has happened way too quickly (the key to making this work is that folks don't realize it at the time)--well before wounds from the past had healed or been forgotten--and the jig is up. Folks aren't scared anymore, realize in many cases they can do this somewhere else (even if it does mean starting over), realize they can do something ELSE and are trained and valuable professionals, and realize that golden handcuffs ARE still handcuffs and handcuffs are bad (usually
). And, more importantly, there is a huge great deal more to life than a friggin' job (and that NO job is worth screwing up your health or family life over). Folks aren't ungrateful, but do realize that gratitude is a two way street.
So the days of sacrifice and fear are over.
And I do sincerely hope things do get better. Only I'm not going to wait on something else to ensure my life gets better and that I enjoy the things that really matter.
Other than learn english, ya have to ease into it, son. Come in generally agreeing with just a bit of a dissent on some of the possibilities. Pretend to be one of the fellers and then start a gradual shift. Bat things around a bit--be on 'our' side--then start shifting the argument bit by bit into the wacko ideas.
Go back, give it some thought, do some internet research on how real pilots talk and practice it with a friend, get a new handle, and give it another try.
Good luck--and I mean that sincerely. Like to see how you do it. Folks here are pretty used to an entity thats an expert in manipulation and deception--an entity that talks at times with extreme truth then seamlessly shifts (sometimes within the same thought train) to extreme deception. That hires high achievers (who equate professional failure here with professional failure somewhere else or in life when nothing could be further from the truth) and then dangles the fleeting carrot (base openings, some cosmic rostering system that fixes everything, magic airplane deliveries, upgrades, improvements in quality of life, long call reserve, pay rises over inflation, etc.) just a wee bit beyond arm's reach while things gradually decline. Investing a great portion of one's life into something (sometimes at the expense of other really, really good and important things) only to find out much later it isn't what they thought it was (or at least had been once upon a time--maybe this is why some come back as sim instructors).
Only this time they've overplayed their hand--too much has happened way too quickly (the key to making this work is that folks don't realize it at the time)--well before wounds from the past had healed or been forgotten--and the jig is up. Folks aren't scared anymore, realize in many cases they can do this somewhere else (even if it does mean starting over), realize they can do something ELSE and are trained and valuable professionals, and realize that golden handcuffs ARE still handcuffs and handcuffs are bad (usually
). And, more importantly, there is a huge great deal more to life than a friggin' job (and that NO job is worth screwing up your health or family life over). Folks aren't ungrateful, but do realize that gratitude is a two way street.So the days of sacrifice and fear are over.
And I do sincerely hope things do get better. Only I'm not going to wait on something else to ensure my life gets better and that I enjoy the things that really matter.
Last edited by Shep69; 28th Apr 2016 at 03:21.
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Bluster from a bully....Xwind is a management plant/troll.....drives him nuts that the training ban has brought them to their knees....expansion plans put on hold.
Xwind, go ahead, make all the empty threats about a post apocalyptic May 31st world you like. Hire all the direct entry "pilots" you want....maybe you can train them all. Piloting can't be hard. Perhaps the CAD will authorize crew controllers to do the sim rides and sign their license as well....
I guess anything is possible when you've been drinking your own bath water for twenty years...
Xwind, go ahead, make all the empty threats about a post apocalyptic May 31st world you like. Hire all the direct entry "pilots" you want....maybe you can train them all. Piloting can't be hard. Perhaps the CAD will authorize crew controllers to do the sim rides and sign their license as well....
I guess anything is possible when you've been drinking your own bath water for twenty years...
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Yes he's a troll but as he doesn't appear on Yammer, here's as good a place as any to engage with him.
hkfooey hits the nail on its head. These 350s arrive very soon and they don't fly themselves. I'm sure management have a plan that'll piss off the pilot group, but it won't help the bottom line, and it won't help fly those planes either. An RP agreement that's good enough and concrete enough to make us think that our future really would be better with CX is the only thing that will really work. Many airlines lose pilots in their first 5-6 years of service but when senior F/Os are leaving for greener grass and Captains are leaving for contract jobs then you really know you've pushed the pilot group too far.
Get back in the negotiating room, give back what you stole then start negotiating some RPs that that will stand the test of time. It's not difficult, management just need to recognise that negotiating means some give & take from both sides, not simply give from one party and take from the other.
hkfooey hits the nail on its head. These 350s arrive very soon and they don't fly themselves. I'm sure management have a plan that'll piss off the pilot group, but it won't help the bottom line, and it won't help fly those planes either. An RP agreement that's good enough and concrete enough to make us think that our future really would be better with CX is the only thing that will really work. Many airlines lose pilots in their first 5-6 years of service but when senior F/Os are leaving for greener grass and Captains are leaving for contract jobs then you really know you've pushed the pilot group too far.
Get back in the negotiating room, give back what you stole then start negotiating some RPs that that will stand the test of time. It's not difficult, management just need to recognise that negotiating means some give & take from both sides, not simply give from one party and take from the other.
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But what are we going to have agreed on in 5 weeks? It really doesn't seem much time to negotiate, vote, put into action.
I'm not coming out of CC for a promise like we had for 25 year housing!
I'm not coming out of CC for a promise like we had for 25 year housing!
Yes he's a troll but as he doesn't appear on Yammer, here's as good a place as any to engage with him.
hkfooey hits the nail on its head. These 350s arrive very soon and they don't fly themselves. I'm sure management have a plan that'll piss off the pilot group, but it won't help the bottom line, and it won't help fly those planes either. An RP agreement that's good enough and concrete enough to make us think that our future really would be better with CX is the only thing that will really work. Many airlines lose pilots in their first 5-6 years of service but when senior F/Os are leaving for greener grass and Captains are leaving for contract jobs then you really know you've pushed the pilot group too far.
Get back in the negotiating room, give back what you stole then start negotiating some RPs that that will stand the test of time. It's not difficult, management just need to recognise that negotiating means some give & take from both sides, not simply give from one party and take from the other.
hkfooey hits the nail on its head. These 350s arrive very soon and they don't fly themselves. I'm sure management have a plan that'll piss off the pilot group, but it won't help the bottom line, and it won't help fly those planes either. An RP agreement that's good enough and concrete enough to make us think that our future really would be better with CX is the only thing that will really work. Many airlines lose pilots in their first 5-6 years of service but when senior F/Os are leaving for greener grass and Captains are leaving for contract jobs then you really know you've pushed the pilot group too far.
Get back in the negotiating room, give back what you stole then start negotiating some RPs that that will stand the test of time. It's not difficult, management just need to recognise that negotiating means some give & take from both sides, not simply give from one party and take from the other.
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Either go back to reevaluate previous proposals or just tweak RP07 and make it more concrete. We know manning levels is what they really need so negotiate it (give AND take!) The AOA have done a lot of work in this area during the previous negotiations, the company just havent had the desire to engage. If they really want to solve this problem then maybe this time they will.
I don't think any of us will be coming out of CC on a promise. Maybe Rod should suggest they put ink to 25yr housing before they start negotiating as a show of good faith. That's one of the biggest indicators in my time here that they simply cannot be trusted.
I don't think any of us will be coming out of CC on a promise. Maybe Rod should suggest they put ink to 25yr housing before they start negotiating as a show of good faith. That's one of the biggest indicators in my time here that they simply cannot be trusted.
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I think you give this conceited brat too much by suggesting he's some management stooge. That would take mean he's standing up for something. But a stooge, most definitely.
Xwind: you joined an airline and at a pay scale that everyone but your Gen-Y brats warned you against. That pay scale reflects how much CX thinks of you. That pay scale also reflects how others in the industry - world wide - think of you. Your colleagues at best tolerate you as they have no other option when inside the cockpit that is insulted by your presence.
The AOA dropped the ball to even sit back and watch it happen, yes. If they imposed the same training ban on C-Scale, as was mooted, then perhaps it could have prevented your insulting existence in any form of a pilot's uniform for a while - or at least at CX. But they didn't and so you and your type are present to define how low standards in both professionalism and character are.
If this training ban in any way slows down the likes of you getting anywhere then the rest of us say "THANK YOU". And if it does lead to direct entry pilots who possess things like "experience", "credentials" and what you lack most of, a "spine" then maybe the travelling public could be safer. But rest assured, the reason such applicants to CX are so few and far between is because with that spine, those hours and those credentials comes a sense of self worth to never work for that insulting remuneration package or conditions. Yes: the same one you begged to eat up is the same one real pilots walked away from.
You can't see past your own self indulgent, pathetic, ignorant and arrogant self to consider a long term.
Xwind: you joined an airline and at a pay scale that everyone but your Gen-Y brats warned you against. That pay scale reflects how much CX thinks of you. That pay scale also reflects how others in the industry - world wide - think of you. Your colleagues at best tolerate you as they have no other option when inside the cockpit that is insulted by your presence.
The AOA dropped the ball to even sit back and watch it happen, yes. If they imposed the same training ban on C-Scale, as was mooted, then perhaps it could have prevented your insulting existence in any form of a pilot's uniform for a while - or at least at CX. But they didn't and so you and your type are present to define how low standards in both professionalism and character are.
If this training ban in any way slows down the likes of you getting anywhere then the rest of us say "THANK YOU". And if it does lead to direct entry pilots who possess things like "experience", "credentials" and what you lack most of, a "spine" then maybe the travelling public could be safer. But rest assured, the reason such applicants to CX are so few and far between is because with that spine, those hours and those credentials comes a sense of self worth to never work for that insulting remuneration package or conditions. Yes: the same one you begged to eat up is the same one real pilots walked away from.
You can't see past your own self indulgent, pathetic, ignorant and arrogant self to consider a long term.
Last edited by ChinaBeached; 28th Apr 2016 at 07:52.
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Copied from the other thread where this twit raised his head previously:
Xwind - can you be anymore ignorant and hypocritical?
What? Like C-Scale that you begged for and ate up like a cheap rancid dancing monkey? That same C-Scale that lowered the worth of a CX "pilot" (loose term) to work for so very much less than others with real experience refused to be insulted with?
Like applying for, begging for, vehemently defending and accepting a job that put immense downward pressure on your colleagues' and their remuneration / COS? And then having the audacity to bit^h and moan about how tough it is to be in your oversized shiny red shoes and squeaky red nose?
Just as you did the pilots with the real experience & credentials who stood firm and said no to being a corporate puppy dog? As did the AOA by publicly denouncing it? And what of the larger pilot body who you screwed over by accepting C-Scale for your own selfish me-first needs? But you & your hop-along SJS kiddies tea party came bounding in with a saucer of milk asking for their cheap Chinese powdered variety, laced with poison? But you're OK "Jack", or is what everyone warned you about actually coming true but you prefer to blame others still? Are the 7/11 noodles becoming too expensive? The 380 sq ft flat cramped? It's been 2 years and you've amassed 175 hrs of ICAO recognised hours, 450 worthless P2X hours, 12 kgs of stale sandwiches around your waist and STILL they haven't made you an Interstellar Super Cool Dude Captain? Of course you should feel hard done by due this CC..... Have you Skyped your Mummy about this?? Is she phoning the AOA to have "stern words"? Have you informed EK that you're coming soon & will bring all that experience with you? Has EK sent over the Sheikh's private 777 to bring you for a fast track Director of Flight Ops position? No? Does the AOA not realise they're holding you back??!
And in your previous thread you say the (REAL CX) pilots are being selfish for fighting for a better future that unfortunately includes you despite what you've done to the collective pilot body through your actions in accepting & defending C-Scale as a good thing?
To the rest of the CX pilots, good luck fellas. I hope you can unite and stay the course to get what you earned and deserve for yourselves and your families.
Xwind - can you be anymore ignorant and hypocritical?
What makes you think they wouldn't do something that is very bad for us?
....then we will be wondering how we all got so brainwashed into thinking this was a good idea.
Of course it won't bother anyone who isnt an SO or FO because it won't affect them at all. I'm alright Jack.
And in your previous thread you say the (REAL CX) pilots are being selfish for fighting for a better future that unfortunately includes you despite what you've done to the collective pilot body through your actions in accepting & defending C-Scale as a good thing?
To the rest of the CX pilots, good luck fellas. I hope you can unite and stay the course to get what you earned and deserve for yourselves and your families.