CX256 Diversion to UAAA

[ByAirMail]

Average Fool

Because if compassionate reasons the aircraft should not have departed with the same crew. The mental / subconscious impact on all crew members would have made them unfit for flight. Ask any of your crew who flew Medical Emergency services. When the phone rang on a Sunday afternoon at the hospital crew room we knew... Child drowning in the pool while at BBQ. You can never come to peace with it.

[bufe01]

Byairmail, I totally disagree.
Best job I have done, a few bad episodes, hundreds of very gratifying. The flying was great as well.
If you can't get the job done you shouldn't be there.
To think industrial issues in that context you must have a heart of stone.
We were not there and not all of us have been in a left seat, also this particular CN for several reasons might have had some extra pressure and imho did what had to be done.

[Leonardo12]

From AFTL:
Three pilots:
"Physiological Rest not Achieved: Maximum FDP 13 hrs"


With 3 hrs discretion crew exceeded their allowed limit.
Any comment?

[Oval3Holer]

Maybe the captain was afraid of being fired if discretion was not used. Then, poor planning resulted in exceeding discretion.

[Catdragon]

I think there's more to that. What about table B and in flight relief?

3man LRO is a complicated one in my opinion.... And of cuz I could be wrong with thr interpretation also!

Originally Posted by Leonardo12

From AFTL:
Three pilots:
"Physiological Rest not Achieved: Maximum FDP 13 hrs"


With 3 hrs discretion crew exceeded their allowed limit.
Any comment?

[goathead]

Until all the full facts are known ( which they never will be ) lets play the ball here , and that is company implemented three crew ops
AND THE GUYS THAT REQUEST THEM
They are the problem arent they ?
Not the skipper who was by the sounds in a s**t position

[flyhardmo]

Agree goathead. If this was a 4 man crew flight the only issue would have been the tragic incident on board. No issues with FTL's or extra pressure on anyone to push on.

[Betsy]

Diverting to ZBAA has been mentioned a few times.

CX256 UAAA-VHHH block time 5:31
K2887 UAAA-ZBAA block time 4:25

Google maps says closest online port is VIDP. Then VABB, VOHS, VOMM.

Next time you should insist going south and pick up a curry before you PX back.

[crwkunt roll]

Methinks you didn't look too hard at that map.

[Mullah Lite]

Two human beings lost their 4 month old baby in circumstances completely beyond their control.

Well done to the crew who gave them some semblance of humanity by doing what they did.

Shame on those of you who have hijacked the humanity behind our professionalism with your soulless remarks. You are no better than the company who value their bottom line more than the big picture and hijacks our professionalism on a daily basis. Well done lowering yourselves to their level.

Whether or not FTLs were broken, it doesn't take a first grade education to see that your primary concern isn't whether they were or not, it's whether cc was undermined. Had they been one minute into discretion, you would still be at the commander's jugular.

I missed the memo that said cc was more important than helping the parents of a dead child through their ordeal.

Sick. Sick. Sick.

[Yonosoy Marinero]

Well done to the crew who gave them some semblance of humanity by doing what they did.

How do you think they helped this poor couple by flying to HK? They're not from HK, nor were they going there. Flying to PEK would have helped them get to their destination faster than carrying on to HK.

Whether or not FTLs were broken,

This is not up for debate. One does not break the FTLs unless in a dire emergency, and this wasn't one as, unfortunately, there is nothing that could have been done to save that life. American style-glorification of 'heroes' is well past the point. Cynicism is unfortunately part of the job.

I am not saying rules were broken in this case, as I don't know (I don't think they were), but undue risks should only be taken when the safety of individuals is at stake.
Would you have risked your job to carry these poor, heartbroken parents to spend their ordeal in Hong Kong rather than Almaty (neither of which they're from)?
Would you have flown 300 pax while fatigued, after having had no rest for 18 or 20 hours to help them? Do you really think taking chances with the safety of everybody else is okay because you want to play good samaritan?

Only they could have gauged and estimated their level of fatigue and how it would have impacted their performance at arrival time. I have my doubts that after a night like this, on a 3-man from EUR, everybody was bright eyed and bushy tailed on approach into HKG. But then that might only be my weak, lazy self...
The problem that I, and many other, see here is that when crews have to make that call these days, their judgement becomes suddenly clouded by external factors, most of which emanate from a certain location on Lantau island...

Let's all be honest and cynical here for a second. I sincerely doubt that their decision to continue was motivated by anything other than pressure from the company. Probably the same pressure which managed to get authorization to take off with a baby recently deceased of unknown reasons on a fully loaded plane within an hour in the middle of the night from the Kazakh authorities...

(Honestly, how the f*&$ does that work?)

[anotherbusdriver]

If the plane was not offloaded, nobody was technically on Kazakh soil... I would assume that is how it works.

Now, if the crew had said, "No, cannot, will stay here"... How do you think they would have managed pax without visas?... And this poor family?... Quite possibly the Kazakh's may have said "cannot... Refuel and depart...". So, min rest on board, and a deceased baby, who may not be in great shape after 12 hours.... Seriously, just think about that.

So options... Russia, China, Mongolia, India ?? None of the above are particularly appealing. Possibly no better as a stop, and India??? The beauracracy there is nightmarish on a normal day.

So, discretion.... If there was an agreement from the crew to utilize Commanders Discretion, and if they decided that they were up for it, why not? What is the difference between using 1 minute or the full extent of it?

I bet you have done it before, and probably for lesser circumstances than those facing this crew.

Stop giving this crew a hard time. The only thing difficult is the fact that the company is the one who expects us to fly over inhospitable countries, and terrain, and now with one less crew member and a heck of a lot less options - reducing safety drastically - for the cost of a single second officer, who would be a dollar per passenger ticket, if that.

[anotherbusdriver]

All they are doing is sucking the safety and margins out of the operation and running away with it. The owners and shareholders are also being sucked dry as the bare shell left after all the raping and pillaging is done will be worthless.

[Liam Gallagher]

"Stop giving this crew a hard time. The only thing difficult is the fact that the company is the one who expects us to fly over inhospitable countries, and terrain, and now with one less crew member and a heck of a lot less options - reducing safety drastically - for the cost of a single second officer, who would be a dollar per passenger ticket, if that"

That ladies and gentlemen is the only post worth reading....spot on.

PS.... AOA costings say the 3 man operation actually costs money, but it reduces head count and the load on an already stretch Training system.

[Mullah Lite]

With all due respect YM, if you honestly believe that those poor people had better options if the skip had left the plane on the ground in UAAA or ZBAA for any amount of time with the uncertified dead body of their child with no immediate facilities available on hand to preserve the body, then you and I have very different betting tendencies.

I might not be a fan of HKG in its entirety but I'd sooner hedge my bets that I'd rather deal with these sorts of things in HKG, especially if I'm not a national of any of the aforementioned countries. Which the parents weren't.

I personally know two of the crew who flew that flight and I can guarantee you that they wouldn't have continued if they thought they couldn't do it safely. Company duress would have not come into their decision making.

Liam, couldn't agree with you more.

[wheels up]

Having done one of these as relief with the duff "rest", I can tell you I wouldn't want to spend another minute in the air - it is very fatiguing and I certainly wasn't on my best game on approach into Hong Kong; I definitely would not want to add an extra sector, the stress of a diversion to an unfamiliar port with lots of high terrain, onboard death and then a couple of hours of discretion into an already flawed equation. What sort of rest do you think the crew achieved inflight?

Then again I'm sure the crew did what they thought was best under very difficult circumstances.

[PNM]

Making assumptions based on people's profile pic?