German plane crash
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If he was passed out, he would not have set 100' on the altimeter.
I think what is important to learn from this is that we cannot have the "sickness management program " that Cathay has. This only intimidates the air crew to fly when unfit!
I think what is important to learn from this is that we cannot have the "sickness management program " that Cathay has. This only intimidates the air crew to fly when unfit!
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Please lets not confuse this guy who who was clearly Psychopathic, leading to a Pathological state, resulting in the death of all these people. To a guy or gal going through a tough time in life needing a time out to reboot. I know of a number of people who have gone through a phase in life requiring help from a LACK of SLEEP, POOR DIET, LACK OF EXERCISE, FAMILY ISSUES (PERSONAL LOSS OR A MANAGER SORTING OUT A PARTNER) and hitting the bottle a little harder than normal. All have sorted themselves out!!! Seems work has a big influence on your state of mental and physical health, not that anyone on the third floor gives two hoots!!
So now its open season on flight crew!
Bitter and twisted ex-partners of Pilots phoning work saying "he or she said this" about you with no evidence and next thing is career over........
On the other side of the coin, I never want see a repeat of what has just happened!!!!!!!!!!!
So now its open season on flight crew!
Bitter and twisted ex-partners of Pilots phoning work saying "he or she said this" about you with no evidence and next thing is career over........
On the other side of the coin, I never want see a repeat of what has just happened!!!!!!!!!!!
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Until the Regulatory authorities if that what you want to call them untie themselves and unbecome box tickers and sub departments of the airlines this isn't going anywhere and nothing is going to change.
Do you really think the HKCAD is a forward thinking big picture department ? No chance ! They are a bunch of box ticking fuel log checking nitwits with absolutely not much idea
Its just absoluty insane CX can get away with D N G a pilot who stood up and manned up to a safety issue only to be threatened , absolute madness and its our ' regulatory bosses' and ' corporate safety department ' who let them get away with it ....
Do you really think the HKCAD is a forward thinking big picture department ? No chance ! They are a bunch of box ticking fuel log checking nitwits with absolutely not much idea
Its just absoluty insane CX can get away with D N G a pilot who stood up and manned up to a safety issue only to be threatened , absolute madness and its our ' regulatory bosses' and ' corporate safety department ' who let them get away with it ....
Goathead,
On the one hand I would suspect you are correct; however, and more likely, I suspect there will be a knee-jerk reaction from regulatory authorities across the world hiding behind the premise of increasing public safety but in reality an ill considered attemp to assuage the ever increasingly vocal and powerful media, thus assuring themselves that should there ever be a repeat that they can argue they did all they could have done.
The reality is that our profession will be yet further degraded by beauraucrats unwilling to make the hard decisions. Companies worldwide will jump on board, again citing public safety to enact even more severe oversight and sanctions upon their crews.
It is a pipe dream to suspect that this will be an end to the Absence Management Programme. The Company will argue that it is even more important now so that they can monitor and lend assistance to those who clearly need it most!
Just wait for them to empower ISMs to report directly on pilots whom they believe to be suffering from some kind of psychological disorder. It will make alcohol reporting look like a primary school fairy tale!
On the one hand I would suspect you are correct; however, and more likely, I suspect there will be a knee-jerk reaction from regulatory authorities across the world hiding behind the premise of increasing public safety but in reality an ill considered attemp to assuage the ever increasingly vocal and powerful media, thus assuring themselves that should there ever be a repeat that they can argue they did all they could have done.
The reality is that our profession will be yet further degraded by beauraucrats unwilling to make the hard decisions. Companies worldwide will jump on board, again citing public safety to enact even more severe oversight and sanctions upon their crews.
It is a pipe dream to suspect that this will be an end to the Absence Management Programme. The Company will argue that it is even more important now so that they can monitor and lend assistance to those who clearly need it most!
Just wait for them to empower ISMs to report directly on pilots whom they believe to be suffering from some kind of psychological disorder. It will make alcohol reporting look like a primary school fairy tale!
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A loss of license due to mental illness is not covered by most insurers. This could be a motive to hide an illness and must be reversed. Any person unfit to fly must be able to report sick without the risk of any disadvantages plus any reason that leads to a loss of license must be sufficiently covered by a respective insurance.
Also the stigma of a depression in a sort of male/macho culture could be a factor.
Ask yourself honestly: would you accept depression as a reason to call in sick to the same degree as e.g. a cold or a bone fracture?
Also the stigma of a depression in a sort of male/macho culture could be a factor.
Ask yourself honestly: would you accept depression as a reason to call in sick to the same degree as e.g. a cold or a bone fracture?
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 29th Mar 2015 at 06:25.
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Max
Good points
However your wrong on one point , the company dont argue. They dictact and the CAD allow , thats how it works here
Theres no way round it , its a HK thing its endemic in the Beuracracy that rubbers stamps everything in this town
Good points
However your wrong on one point , the company dont argue. They dictact and the CAD allow , thats how it works here
Theres no way round it , its a HK thing its endemic in the Beuracracy that rubbers stamps everything in this town
In the USAF, anyone who has anything to do with nukes: pilots, navigators, load masters, security forces, ordinance guys, get every 6 month reviews of health, mental status, finances, performance reports. Anything out of the ordinary gets investigated.
Wouldn't the public love those protocols mandated for pilots.
Anecdotal evidence points towards depression becoming a serious issue in HKG and it's being hidden for obvious reasons. I don't think pilot management have much of a clue and they'd be well served working hard with unions on successful peer support models.
Wouldn't the public love those protocols mandated for pilots.
Anecdotal evidence points towards depression becoming a serious issue in HKG and it's being hidden for obvious reasons. I don't think pilot management have much of a clue and they'd be well served working hard with unions on successful peer support models.
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Sam, you have it dead right. Encumbrances to those seeking help (or others who might refer someone with issues) must be broken down and companies willing to back this/have strong EAP "no jeopardy" programs--and take the economics out of it (i.e. don't lose your income just because you get sick). And have a way to recertify people after they've dealt with problems.
Further regulatory burdens will only drive more people more underground. This guy was tearing up doctors notes lest someone find out about them. You can't write laws to find people who don't want to be found. This guy could just as easily made up a phony name and/or ID for his doctor visits, gone to a doctor in a foreign country without records, self-medicated, or just not seen anyone for anything. Not saying that a bunch of idiots with pens might not head in that direction, only if they do it will only make the problem worse and punish the innocent (as well as those who COULD benefit from help to stave off problems before they become mountains).
Gnadenberg, as someone with firsthand experience of these, they do NOT work when it comes to mental health or substance abuse problems--UNLESS something significant happens to flag someone (which doesn't happen until the point it becomes really, really bad). A person with significant issues can run under the radar for his or her entire career (fearing the ramifications of getting help which is even worse when the person has problems and isn't thinking straight to begin with). PRP was a significant encumbrance to individuals and families from getting counseling and help who genuinely would have benefited from it. Mental health (even for skills to deal with family and normal problems that crop up in life) had such a stigma that it was avoided like the plague. Even a simple question on a physical like "do you find your job stressful" was usually checked 'no' lest one have to go through a nutroll to unscrew the results.
I do VERY much agree a strong relationship between union and management in developing a real assistance model (geared toward getting the individual well) with strong peer support is the key to success here.
Further regulatory burdens will only drive more people more underground. This guy was tearing up doctors notes lest someone find out about them. You can't write laws to find people who don't want to be found. This guy could just as easily made up a phony name and/or ID for his doctor visits, gone to a doctor in a foreign country without records, self-medicated, or just not seen anyone for anything. Not saying that a bunch of idiots with pens might not head in that direction, only if they do it will only make the problem worse and punish the innocent (as well as those who COULD benefit from help to stave off problems before they become mountains).
Gnadenberg, as someone with firsthand experience of these, they do NOT work when it comes to mental health or substance abuse problems--UNLESS something significant happens to flag someone (which doesn't happen until the point it becomes really, really bad). A person with significant issues can run under the radar for his or her entire career (fearing the ramifications of getting help which is even worse when the person has problems and isn't thinking straight to begin with). PRP was a significant encumbrance to individuals and families from getting counseling and help who genuinely would have benefited from it. Mental health (even for skills to deal with family and normal problems that crop up in life) had such a stigma that it was avoided like the plague. Even a simple question on a physical like "do you find your job stressful" was usually checked 'no' lest one have to go through a nutroll to unscrew the results.
I do VERY much agree a strong relationship between union and management in developing a real assistance model (geared toward getting the individual well) with strong peer support is the key to success here.
Last edited by Shep69; 29th Mar 2015 at 18:11.
