Tired and Sad

[anotherbusdriver]

Recently learned that Airbus F/O's, senior enough to be doing initial Command training are being offered a Command on the B777, instead of being kept on type.
By switching fleets as an F/O, waiting a few months, then doing right to left on the B777.
A few years ago, as an F/O, I was senior enough to move to B744 as an F/O, but told that if I took the position, it would delay my Command upgrade as I had to spend a minimum of two years on type first.
Now it seems, that rule is no longer enforced.
This is demoralising, and disgusting for any Senior Captain on the Airbus, trying desperately to get across to the B777.
I have even requested going back to F/O to go over as an F/O, but they will not allow it.
Instead, effectively very junior officers are taking command slots on a (what is now considered) "Senior Fleet", whilst officers having spent up to 20 years in the company are being forced to watch it and weep.
I am so very, very sad, and angry, and tired. This is just completely wrong.

[el commandante]

Just relax and wait.
777 is now at the zenith. 777F will come. It will still be a good roster but everybody will have his fair share of freighter flying. BOM is also going back to the 777.
Wait for the 350. Airbus will have the most interesting flying in the company.

But yes, I agree that those FO's should do 2 years in the right seat first. Basically they take a command slot which should go to a more senior captain.

[anotherbusdriver]

"May you live in interesting times" (may your flying be most interesting) ...
Isn't that an old Chinese curse?
Sorry, give me NY, London, Rome, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, LA, Paris....... I don't need interesting. I want G days, I want sleep.

Plus the argument of "Common Jet Salary" is not fair.
Because on my roster, I work twice as hard, mostly all nights, and never really go over 84 hours.
New Captains on 777, many years junior to me, are doubling their salaries every month on overtime, but doing half the work I am, sleeping twice as long, and have twice as many G days. It isn't a fair comparison, and everybody knows it.

[gofor]

In the past you could change fleets and do command the same time - long course. It is only recent that you can only do short course command - ie same type. Early command on the freighter, bases and delaying commands, it is all swings and round abouts and you cant expect to have your cake and eat it all the time. Just wait for the next batch of DEFO's.

[ron burgandy]

No integrity

Busdriver, what you've just described is one aspect in the complete lack of integrity in this company.
Because there is absolutely no integrity from their side, whether it be in rostering, in negotiating, in fleet choice, in contract adherence…..basically any area you care to name, I see no reason why we should have any integrity in our dealings with them.

For this reason, I suggest that if you find yourself in the predicament of

"New Captains on 777, many years junior to me, are doubling their salaries every month on overtime, but doing half the work I am, sleeping twice as long, and have twice as many G days. It isn't a fair comparison, and everybody knows it."

then take the appropriate action to make it a fair comparison.

Eventually they may figure out that running an airline with 20% unfitness is not a productive way to run a business. Huge productivity gains could be realised if a collaborative, rather than combative, approach was adopted in their dealings with this pilot group.

[geh065]

I think you all forgot the long time 777 boys and girls had a roster resembling a current Airbus roster for years. Eventually the 777 roster will get worse again and the Airbus roster will get better. One may be "fairer" at the time but overall it all balances out for most people.

[Arfur Dent]

Have you brought this particular example of the CX policy towards Aircrew to the attention of Senior Management by writing a letter?
I mean 'Senior' too. DFO level and copied to the CEO so that RH has to give a considered reply that looks like it isn't just another example of crewing incompetence.
Try it and get your similarly disadvantaged Captain mates to do the same. Be reasonable and polite - don't rant - and make a case for a solution ( ie you go to the 777 and new Capt replaces you on the 'bus.)
You are, believe it or not, quite valuable to even the most 'aircrew-hating' executive. They didn't all get to Oxford Uni by being stupid so make a logical case about being disadvantaged, suggest a solution that is do-able, fire it off and see what happens.
Worth a try!

[de facto]

A 20 year professional pilot moaning of unfairness in aviation...where were you the last 20 years?golden cage? Get a grip.
I ll go get my kleenex

[cxorcist]

Two most useful and encouraging comments here:

1) Don't get mad..., get even.

2) I'm very proud of what I have seen in ANC.

I'll second both of of those!!!

Thanks Gents.

[Flap10]

I think you all forgot the long time 777 boys and girls had a roster resembling a current Airbus roster for years.

errrr....not even close! When the 777 was doing regional stuff you were under the old RPs, you had the protection of 5-4-3, you didn't have free reserves, you didn't have the roster abuses and roster instability that you have now, and above all you had just a few crap flights through the night.


Most of your flying was regionally during the DAY!!!! 90% of my flying now is through the night, it is relentless. Even the regional turn arounds are through the night.


So NO I completely disagree with you, you did NOT have a roster resembling the current Airbus roster. Show me your worst 777 roster and I'll show you my worst Airbus roster, it won't even compare.


You 777 boys and gals have to understand how crap the regional rosters have become, so when it comes to RP negotiations you at least have an appreciation and not easily appease to management demands to sub standard RPs.

[Shep69]

The GOOD thing about where we are now is we (mostly) all have come to the realization we are on the same team and have strongly indicated we will not accept worsening conditions of one group to favor another group--no matter how cleverly worded or how sweet the bribe. Karma has a way of catching up with you. Freighter or Passenger, HKG or Based, Regional or Long Haul, Airbus or Boeing we are all in this together.

Our conditions have deteriorated in the past because we HAVE allowed ourselves to be divided in the past and it's always easy to screw the faceless 'other guy.' Well, the 'other guy' is us.

So hold out and stay the course. Steady as she goes.

[The FUB]

The Jumbo roster is indeed creaking under CC. But there are too many non AOA pilots now lapping up the work on G days. No solidarity.

ps would love to name him

[broadband circuit]

But there are too many non AOA pilots now lapping up the work on G days. No solidarity.

The reality is that they have the same hard FTL limits on flight time & duty, such as annual, weekly, 28 days etc etc.

Any time they change an O day into a duty or a reserve, they're chewing into those limits.

Merely stop gap measures, eventually holes will become unpluggable, as it seems is happening with the freighter in ANC. Keep the line!!

[Hellenic aviator]

Flap10 wrote: [QUOTE] errrr....not even close! When the 777 was doing regional stuff you were under the old RPs, you had the protection of 5-4-3, you didn't have free reserves, you didn't have the roster abuses and roster instability that you have now, and above all you had just a few crap flights through the night.


Most of your flying was regionally during the DAY!!!! 90% of my flying now is through the night, it is relentless. Even the regional turn arounds are through the night.


So NO I completely disagree with you, you did NOT have a roster resembling the current Airbus roster. Show me your worst 777 roster and I'll show you my worst Airbus roster, it won't even compare.


You 777 boys and gals have to understand how crap the regional rosters have become, so when it comes to RP negotiations you at least have an appreciation and not easily appease to management demands to sub standard RPs[QUOTE]

I disagree with you, Flap10. When I joined the 777 fleet, Murray was in charge of the AOA. 5-4-3 went out the window, A days and free reserve came in, and I was doing "all nighters" to the DXB, BAH, BOM and RUH. Sometimes the flights were full that we didn't get a seat in the cabin to rest - our rest seat was the jumpseat. The rosters were horrendous albeit we were reminded by Hoyland that it was legal. We would do DXB/BOM/BKK and see the sunrise abeam Myanmar - on descent we had power naps. The multitude of ASRs submitted didn't change anything.

[BuzzBox]

errrr....not even close! When the 777 was doing regional stuff you were under the old RPs, you had the protection of 5-4-3, you didn't have free reserves, you didn't have the roster abuses and roster instability that you have now, and above all you had just a few crap flights through the night.

I don't wish to get into a pissing contest, BUT...

For a start there was no 5-4-3 protection on the 777. The old 5-4-3 rule only applied to flights that were rostered after a long haul pattern. Given that the 777 didn't do long haul back then, the 5-4-3 rule was not applicable.

As Hellenic Aviation said, it wasn't that long ago that the 777 did all the ME & India stuff. Some of those ME flights were two-crew through the night (DXB-HKG, DXB-BOM-BKK, BOM-DXB-BOM, BOM-BKK-HKG). If we did have a third crew member we often didn't get a seat in the cabin anyway, as the scheduled block time was just under eight hours. We also had the CMB flights (two sectors through the night), the DHL overnight freighters, and the CGK overnight turn-around, which was then rostered with two crew not three.

I have no doubt that the current Airbus roster is worse given the airline's expansion over the last few years, but back in the day the 777 roster was pretty crap too, particularly for the line drivers.

[Flap10]

BuzzBox and Hellenic Aviator,


I also don't wish to get into a pissing contest...BUT you'll have a hard time convincing a current Airbus guy that your old 777 roster was similar because it never was. The two rosters were/are worlds apart!!!


You have absolutely no idea how bad it has gotten on the Airbus. Significantly worse than your old 777 roster.

If we did have a third crew member we often didn't get a seat in the cabin anyway, as the scheduled block time was just under eight hours

You think we get a seat when it's completely full? Nothing new there! I lost count the number of times I've had to rest on the cockpit floor.

DXB-BOM-BKK, BOM-DXB-BOM, BOM-BKK-HKG

you were lucky, we had DXB-BOM-HKG (two crew) until the patterns were changed. Not only that we used to have DXB-min rest during the day...land in the morning and return in the evening.

We also had the CMB flights (two sectors through the night)

Yes we have them now thank you very much

DHL overnight freighters

Yes we had them as well, they were a piece of cake compared to what we
have now.

it wasn't that long ago that the 777 did all the ME & India stuff

Correct me if I'm wrong but you just had BOM and DEL. On top of that the first sector was through the day. I know this because when the Airbus took over it was actually a pleasant flight to DEL and BOM with a very decent departure time out of HKG. It was only the return sector that was through the night. Well try BOM, DEL, HYD, MAA, both sectors through the night. The list is long!!!

CGK overnight turn-around

I'll call BullSh!t on this, I've been on Airbus for a very long time. I distinctly remember when these were introduced. They were introduced around the same time as the DPS middle of the night turn around 2009. The CGK middle of the night turn weren't around back in early 2000.


Granted 5-4-3 may not have played a factor, but you still had paid reserve and you didn't have the roster instability that you have now.


Yes the 777 still does some night turns, not disputing that. But the frequency is so low that you'll end up doing them once in a blue moon. Try on average losing 8-9 nights of sleep per month, every month, for years and years, then come and tell me if the 777 roster was similar.


Again, let's settle this! show me your worst roster and I'll show you mine! it's not that difficult.


My point to this is I don't want those not on the Airbus to take RP negotiations lightly. The Airbus guys are at the moment ( and has been for the past 6-8 years) on the sh!tty end of the rosters. Lets not settle for anything worse just because some are enjoying cushy rosters.

[Pilotpa]

For guys who don't want to get into a pissing contest, you're getting into a pissing contest. It's like arguing with the wife about who's more tired: she because she was up with the little ones; you because you've been up for the last three nights during your WOCL (don't even try to explain that to them). The same applies gender opposite in case anyone is offended.
It all stems down to the fact that the company is rostering to the L of FTL. That's meant to be for seasonal bumps. Run your car to its redline every day and see how long it lasts. Same happens to humans, except when we break down, it results in 20% sickness rates. I don't even want to know what will happen to us in 20 years when they finally figure out that what we do will kill us. We'll all be retired, divorced and mysteriously dying.
Anyway, it's all crap. I remember the 777 roster looking like newsprint and the 330 is no better now. It's just that now the ERs are here with the resultant better rosters. They weren't around then which basically made the 777 a different fleet to what it is now.
Remember who the bad guys are here. It's not us.
You're both right.

[Anotherday]

Looked at 6 months of both rosters side by side, 777 pre ER and the current airbus roster and I'd say the airbus roster is worse.
Did the 777 guys mention that as F/Os you all pissed off to the 400 and it's long haul roster after a year or so on the 777 after QL?
The joke in all this is the 777 guys who say we did it so you now have to.
Dad beat the **** out of me every night he came home from the pub, I'm moving out of the house, now its your turn to get a beating.................
Nobody wins.

[nike]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

[anotherbusdriver]

I am sorry that this thread has become a competition. It was not my intention to start a thread about who has had it tougher.

What we all understand is that yes, the Airbus roster sucks, and yes, so too did the B777. It all changed with the big twin doing long haul.

In the old days there were "Senior" and "Junior" fleets. The idea being that the junior officer in their category joined the junior fleet, where they got loads and loads of sectors, operating into challenging ports, doing non-precision approaches, and basically cutting their teeth - before moving on to the "Senior Fleet", where the environment could be potentially more challenging, with the heavier weights, longer flights over remote areas, more challenging winter environments, etc. so requiring the more senior manager with plenty of experience to run the show, and keep the ball rolling with a heavy crew.

So now, there are even less experienced pilots joining CX as a Second Officer. With possibly 200 hours in light aircraft, and maybe 50 Take off and landings?

They become JFO on the B777, then if they go on to stay as FO and then Relief... The only real handling time that pilot will have will be the JFO a time, so maybe 6 months to 1 year of mostly long haul flying. So even if they did 4 take offs and landings per month for that year; that is only another max of 50 handling sectors.

They go on to Relief for the next 7 or 8 years, and you may get a pilot who does 1 take off and landing a month if they are lucky (usually it is 1 every 3 months to keep legally current!)... That equates to max of 12 per year (not including sickness and leave).

So that would only be another 100 operating sectors max, before upgrading to Junior Captain on the "Senior Fleet".

TO ME, THAT'S JUST MADNESS!!

Point being that it was a great philosophy to move junior officers into regional roles where they could get sectors. Where their young keen bodies could bounce back better from the tough flying, but also where they had a chance to "learn to fly", like they didn't get a chance in the Airforce or GA.

Where NTC's about being aware of the Aircraft's energy state after other operator's accidents, and handling sims are probably not required because crews would already be able to fly.

Also, by allowing Senior Officers to move up in Seniority to positions that they aspire to, it gives a "light at the end of the tunnel" mentality to those suffering at the bottom, and also allows those who have "paid their dues" to not become so profoundly unhappy with the system that they are psychologically affected by it.

Everybody would be happier, and it would be fairer, and would be much safer in the long term.