Controlled Rest
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Raven as usual another imbecile post.
Amazes me how we can all work for the same company and yet some have absolutely no clue as to how fatiguing some patterns are on the other fleets.
Example DXB-HKG two crew through your circadian low with an FDP of 9+ hours. This having flown to DXB through the night as well only two days prior to the return sector. I challenge anyone to stay awake and alert on that sector. I don't care if you throw a bucket full of ice water on yourself, it won't help.
Amazes me how we can all work for the same company and yet some have absolutely no clue as to how fatiguing some patterns are on the other fleets.
Example DXB-HKG two crew through your circadian low with an FDP of 9+ hours. This having flown to DXB through the night as well only two days prior to the return sector. I challenge anyone to stay awake and alert on that sector. I don't care if you throw a bucket full of ice water on yourself, it won't help.
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Raven, when you were on the Airbus, did you do much ME/India/Australia or mainly regional 330 and long haul 340? I don't often agree with cxorcist but I do in this case - Controlled Rest is scientifically proven to increase alertness levels at the end of a flight through the WOCL. By the way, what's Controlled Rest a euphemism for?
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Hi Steve,
To answer your question, when I was on the Airbus....yes, I did plenty of Australian and middle eastern patterns.....they were mentally and physically exhausting.....and rightly demanded a three pilot crew.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that pilots should not be fatigued flying some of the ball-breaking patterns we fly through our WOCL, especially the cumulative effect of doing so. What offends me is that airline management ignore the obvious need for a leg stretch pilot and, instead, pretend that sleeping on the job is as safe by candy coating it with a nice safe sounding term like "controlled rest". It's still one pilot sleeping on the job.....no matter how it is rationalized or cloaked.
Hence my characterization of "controlled rest" as a euphemism: "an innocuous word or expression used in place of one that may sound offensive".
If safety was our number one priority we would have a leg stretch pilot assigned when flying a long duty period through the WOCL, certainly those patterns identified as particularly fatiguing by ASR-F.
It may be scientifically proven to increase alertness levels, but at the same time sets up the real possibility that BOTH pilots may end up asleep...as the evidence of it in practice has shown.
To answer your question, when I was on the Airbus....yes, I did plenty of Australian and middle eastern patterns.....they were mentally and physically exhausting.....and rightly demanded a three pilot crew.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that pilots should not be fatigued flying some of the ball-breaking patterns we fly through our WOCL, especially the cumulative effect of doing so. What offends me is that airline management ignore the obvious need for a leg stretch pilot and, instead, pretend that sleeping on the job is as safe by candy coating it with a nice safe sounding term like "controlled rest". It's still one pilot sleeping on the job.....no matter how it is rationalized or cloaked.
Hence my characterization of "controlled rest" as a euphemism: "an innocuous word or expression used in place of one that may sound offensive".
If safety was our number one priority we would have a leg stretch pilot assigned when flying a long duty period through the WOCL, certainly those patterns identified as particularly fatiguing by ASR-F.
It may be scientifically proven to increase alertness levels, but at the same time sets up the real possibility that BOTH pilots may end up asleep...as the evidence of it in practice has shown.
Last edited by raven11; 28th Aug 2014 at 00:37.
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and what progress have we made on this matter? Our previous AFTLs required an RP if the SST was 8 hrs or more as we worked through the night time period ........ now it is 9!! Progress indeed
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This story doesn't make sense to me - there is more to it than is being reported.
The aircraft will not leave its cruise level unless the MCP ALTSEL is reset, or the Autopilot is disconnected, which would result in a loud and continuous AP disconnect warning as well as an altitude alert.
I believe some Indian and Indonesian carriers have FOs that are there just to fill the seat, and rarely allowed to do anything useful, like landing and taking off!
The report says she had to wake the captain and that he returned the aircraft to its correct level. Scary stuff.
And they thought they could get away with a 5000 ft altitude bust in RVSM without reporting it ??? And no official report by ATC??
The aircraft will not leave its cruise level unless the MCP ALTSEL is reset, or the Autopilot is disconnected, which would result in a loud and continuous AP disconnect warning as well as an altitude alert.
I believe some Indian and Indonesian carriers have FOs that are there just to fill the seat, and rarely allowed to do anything useful, like landing and taking off!
The report says she had to wake the captain and that he returned the aircraft to its correct level. Scary stuff.
And they thought they could get away with a 5000 ft altitude bust in RVSM without reporting it ??? And no official report by ATC??
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Raven, OK thanks. When did you leave the Airbus and which fleet did you go to? Also, if you were to use a non-euphemistic term for controlled rest, what would it be?
I find it somewhat ironic that we are all very accepting of the use of in-flight relief or leg-stretch, where the captain is in the crew rest area or a seat in the cabin, and here we are debating the pros and cons of one pilot taking a short nap at the controls to alleviate tiredness. Go figure, as our North American brethren might put it.
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I find it somewhat ironic that we are all very accepting of the use of in-flight relief or leg-stretch, where the captain is in the crew rest area or a seat in the cabin, and here we are debating the pros and cons of one pilot taking a short nap at the controls to alleviate tiredness. Go figure, as our North American brethren might put it.
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Where the airline and the crew have done what would normally be planned or expected of them, but on the particular pattern/sectorn there is constant recourse to "controlled" rest then there is something absolutely WRONG.
Apollogies for the screaming capitals,but we cannot go on ignoring the REGULAR use of controlled rest on any specific sector/pastern.
The question remains..... who tracks the exceptional, continually dangerous sector/pattern. Is it the chief pilot or CSD or CAD or the individual captain.
If a serious incident were to occur on a sector that was prone to common and regular use of "controlled rest" - who carries the can? Is it the chief pilot because he knew about the "dangers/risk" of the sector/pattern or CSD or crew scheduling who were technically within the AFTLS OR the individual captain/crew on the day (particularly if they were to utter any comment about the tiring nature of the sector/pattern) at the inevitable CAD investigation.
Now, these types of sectors are actually being scheduled and operated or they are not. No point in fart arsing around. Either do something about it or else stop complaining.
What do you think????
Apollogies for the screaming capitals,but we cannot go on ignoring the REGULAR use of controlled rest on any specific sector/pastern.
The question remains..... who tracks the exceptional, continually dangerous sector/pattern. Is it the chief pilot or CSD or CAD or the individual captain.
If a serious incident were to occur on a sector that was prone to common and regular use of "controlled rest" - who carries the can? Is it the chief pilot because he knew about the "dangers/risk" of the sector/pattern or CSD or crew scheduling who were technically within the AFTLS OR the individual captain/crew on the day (particularly if they were to utter any comment about the tiring nature of the sector/pattern) at the inevitable CAD investigation.
Now, these types of sectors are actually being scheduled and operated or they are not. No point in fart arsing around. Either do something about it or else stop complaining.
What do you think????
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OPS A states that crew are encouraged to submit an ASRF anytime CR is used. I personally MOR the event so CAD has a record of it. I really hope everyone else is doing it as well.
OPS A also states that CR shall not be used as a routine strategy and shall only be used as an exceptional strategy when all other countermeasures have failed. If CAD sees that a particular pattern has an extremely high event of CR then eventually the company will be forced to make changes.
So please fill out out those ASRFs and MOR the event.
OPS A also states that CR shall not be used as a routine strategy and shall only be used as an exceptional strategy when all other countermeasures have failed. If CAD sees that a particular pattern has an extremely high event of CR then eventually the company will be forced to make changes.
So please fill out out those ASRFs and MOR the event.
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Steve....I gave you a non-euphemistic term for controlled rest in my last post:
"Sleeping on the job". Here's another one: "cost saving measure".
Flap 10...I tip my hat to you....your most sensible post ever!
"Sleeping on the job". Here's another one: "cost saving measure".
Flap 10...I tip my hat to you....your most sensible post ever!
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Flaps 10
I hate to tell you this , but irrespective of how many MOR 's you file the company decides which ones get forwarded to the CAD. The rest just get filed and CAD never see them .
So if you want to make sure it gets to the CAD send it directly to them by post it's the only way to be sure they get to see it and then stand by for your bollocking
I hate to tell you this , but irrespective of how many MOR 's you file the company decides which ones get forwarded to the CAD. The rest just get filed and CAD never see them .
So if you want to make sure it gets to the CAD send it directly to them by post it's the only way to be sure they get to see it and then stand by for your bollocking
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Oval,
http://www.cad.gov.hk/english/pdf/CAD382.pdf
you might want to read up.
You can always email [email protected] and confirm.
If the CSD emails you and tells you that the report has been submitted to the CAD it's safe to assume that it has been done. Yes they cheat and lie, but they're not blatantly that stupid when you can easily contact CAD and verify.
http://www.cad.gov.hk/english/pdf/CAD382.pdf
you might want to read up.
You can always email [email protected] and confirm.
If the CSD emails you and tells you that the report has been submitted to the CAD it's safe to assume that it has been done. Yes they cheat and lie, but they're not blatantly that stupid when you can easily contact CAD and verify.
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Other points to consider
Yes, well, tis nice and all to MOR and ASR-F all of this, but how many people are actually following the Limitations imposed under preflight...controlled rest. 15 minutes recovery time, devoid of all responsibilities? There's like 12 operational considerations that go along with CR that are all pretty basic, but I think it's good to review how "they" want it done, if you're going to take CR and have CAD notified, it'd be nice if they come knocking to let them know you did it "by the book."
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Most Airlines moving towards FRMS have controlled rest in their Part A. A lot of airlines / crews don't have sleep facilities like CX. There are no scientific studies to support 3 crews are less sleepy than 2 crews (without rest facilities).
Most Pilots I know would prefer to op 2 crew and have a nap under "controlled rest" than having to look over their shoulder to talk to a third pilot who is probbaly thinking WTF am i doing here no landing and tuning in to get the cricket results.
In many situations a coffee and nap will do you the world of good when flying through the wocl. There is also a lot of scientfic data suggesting that on short slips staying on local base time is the best method to manage sleepiness thus putting a rather big ? on the rostering of 18-30hr rest periods which were previously seen as taboo.
That said 16hr in a tube is beyond the wit of man so every sympathy/respect to the Nigels up front
Most Pilots I know would prefer to op 2 crew and have a nap under "controlled rest" than having to look over their shoulder to talk to a third pilot who is probbaly thinking WTF am i doing here no landing and tuning in to get the cricket results.
In many situations a coffee and nap will do you the world of good when flying through the wocl. There is also a lot of scientfic data suggesting that on short slips staying on local base time is the best method to manage sleepiness thus putting a rather big ? on the rostering of 18-30hr rest periods which were previously seen as taboo.
That said 16hr in a tube is beyond the wit of man so every sympathy/respect to the Nigels up front
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A lot of airlines / crews don't have sleep facilities like CX.
Yeah great idea about staying on home base time. Depart HKG at 2000, arrive at destination hotel ready to get into bed at 0600 HKG time, next duty wake up is at 0200 HKG time. Wish I had thought of this brilliant idea 7 years ago
