HK AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL BLOG

[psychohk]

The HONG KONG AIR TRAFFIC CONTOL ASSOCIATION has created a blog as a means of addressing issues that arise in the HK FIR, to create a better understanding within the aviation industry of current restrictions and procedures.

ON AIR: HKATCA Official Blog

A platform for pilots and fellow ATCOs to communicate. Have a question? Don't hesitate to drop an email to [email protected]. Our technical reps are always happy to answer you!

[psychohk]

Points for discussion

The HKATCA has in the recent past conducted airline briefings on suggested practices as the movement rate for HKIA rises. Some points from discussions following those briefings:

1. How Clearance Delivery operates. Many misconceptions most incorrect
2. Start up delays. Never a straight forward issue.
3. Delays from mainland ATC and how they are administered
4. Sequencing traffic on departure to achieve the best overall movement rate or efficiency in en-route airspace
5. R/T: what is necessary and what is wasted air time
6. What ATC can see with our surveillance equipment. That is what information do we already have on each aircraft movement?
7. How aircrew can assist in maximising runway usage on both arrival and departure. Significant gains can be achieved just by understanding the preferred outcome versus current practice
8. Sequencing inbound - the use and application of speed control - landing slot times and how the landing sequence is created
9. At maximum hourly movement rates, the impact of minor or major interruptions and their consequence on holding requirements
10. Stack swapping - being changed from one holding pattern to another
11. The impact of weather - the impact of each crew requiring an individual approach to weather avoidance - what ATC and aircrew can achieve if we have a common understanding
12. Aircrew conduct, entering, taking off, landing and vacating a runway
13. The dramatic impact of overflights on HKIA movements and complexity in the provision of ATC

The HKATCA is endeavouring to conduct a new round of briefings/discussions with Cathay and Dragonair, between line pilots and operational controllers. From those conducted already, the benefits were widely acclaimed by both parties.

If you have any queries on the above or other issues, a suitably qualified person will be assigned to answer, so please use the blog.

[swh]

Hey "psycho",

Could I suggest a new Pprune ID, one that imparts confidence in ATC ?

Regards

[bekolblockage]

swh

Trust me, the name Psycho in HK ATC (and formally Oz military/civilian ATC) is synonymous with exemplary knowledge, passion and dedication to aviation.
Everybody who knows him or recognizes his voice in the Tower knows that he imparts a level of confidence in ATC that his peers look up to.

Good initiative thanks Psycho.

BB

[gtseraf]

As a frequent visitor to HKG from Japan, this is a fantastic initiative. A great way to improve things is by good communication and understanding of all the priorities, procedures and problems faced by all involved.

[Captain Dart]

A good initiative but all the 'blogs' in the world, an extra runway and another terminal will not improve the situation much until the 'cousins' up north open up their airspace and remove the 'glass wall'. What happened to the mooted integration of the area's airspace? I was under the impression that we would all be talking to 'Pearl Approach' by now, nearly 17 years after the handover.

The delays I am experiencing on a regular basis, even in Hong Kong's version of 'CAVOK' weather, are concerning, and do not bode well for the coming summer. HKIA's reputation as an efficient and reliable hub may well be under threat due to delays and missed connections.

[BTC-GC]

why 250kts and not less when cleared to enter a hold?

why force inbound planes to descend 10nm from DOTMI, "when ready" omitted when no one is crossing the outbound corridor?

why all the "unrestricted"?

why S6C, and not S6A, nevermind the good old slam dunk with "expect track miles" during quiet hours?

why climb "TO" FL? why descend "TO" FL? ("to" added)

why climb "" ft? why descend "" ft? ("to" omitted)

why runway change when wind VBR? creating a huge queue consequently push back delay

why the inefficient push back consequently creating chaotic inbound outbound scenes over the North bays

why would the third runway increase TKOF/LDG movements when the bottleneck is at base leg

[crwkunt roll]

why put a link up here that we can't be logged into..... or alternatively, tell me how? Is it just an email address????

I have one though....... Why do Mainland ATC descend us to ridiculously low levels so far out from HK?

[psychohk]

HKATC Blog

I'll address this issue and have the necessary information posted shortly.

Then all submissions will be answered publicly on the blog. Some submissions have already been answered privately by email, but that's not the intention. We want the information shared as widely as possible.

The post above has some great points and will be answered in a day or two. They will require some detail. It is precisely by giving our reasoning that it will dispel some of the misconceptions of why we do what we do.

Thanks for posting.

[jacobus]

That's easy, and sadly can't be blamed on ineptitude. Industrial sabotage.

[Captain Dart]

It's also in case Colonel Wong wants to fly his MiG copy for 20 minutes; the PLAAF controls most of the country's airspace. This is a happy result for China, as it puts the squeeze on Hong Kong. I note, and sometimes compete with for levels, more and more mainland airliners flying direct to destinations in Australia and elsewhere. Maybe that's why we still don't have 'Pearl Approach' after 17 years.

The new Jebel Ali airport in Dubai will have five parallel runways, has desert weather, their military is under control, and is home to an airline that has embraced the A380. It is noteworthy that Virgin has dropped out of the 'Kangaroo Route' via HKIA.

ATC blogs are laudable, but HKIA has gone as far as it can go unless there are radical changes 'up north', and CX needs to order VLA's 'yesterday'.

[jacobus]

True Dart, sadly all too true; with the caveat that Colonel Wong doesn't fly his Mig clone in the dark or at 04 dubs in the morning, or presumably in inclement weather for that matter. That comes with the next load of technology that they steal from someone else. Leading me to the conclusion that we are being intentionally f@cked about in order to waste fuel.

[psychohk]

Reply to BTC-GC's questions.

Replies to BTC-GC have been posted on the HKATCA's Blog

HKATCA Official Blog

[TSIO540]

ANA has an engine failure reference procedure published for the B767 off r07L and R. This procedure is also applied to single engine missed approaches. Basically, it calls for tracking to Rover or Porpa, as appropriate, then a LEFT turn to a track of 182 degrees

Dragonair, the locally based airline has the identical procedure to yours. In my opinion, if you stand in the tower and survey the standard missed approach track re terrain, there is a genuine low point below that track.

I have been told about the procedure in question and it basically says fly the runway 07L or R track to 8 DME then turn RIGHT and track 190.

I believe that in the event of an engine out missed approach above maximum landing weight only, the performance engineers would have determined that the standard missed approach climb gradient requirement exceeds the aircraft capability which would by the insistence on this procedure.

Would the right turn really cause an issue?

[bekolblockage]

Basically, it calls for tracking to Rover or Porpa, as appropriate, then a LEFT turn to a track of 182 degrees

Firstly, I think the original writer meant a RIGHT turn to track 182 after PORPA/ROVER. At least I hope so.

Would the right turn really cause an issue?

I believe the right turn Psychohk is talking about in the blog refers to a non-standard engine-out missed approach from 07L turning slightly right to ROVER, the 07L SID waypoint, (before turning down the West Lamma Channel) instead of the standard MAP which turns left 15 degrees.
The standard MAP is considered procedurally separated from the 07R SID, even in IMC, but has a climb gradient requirement of 7%.

As you can imagine, if the non-standard MAP to ROVER was commenced unannounced when a departure was just airborne for PORPA, things can get pretty sporting very quickly in IMC with little way out except a lot of finger-crossing.
Certainly if made aware that an engine out missed approach was likely, the departure would be held, as we do in Dependent (or Coordinated, as we call it here) Mode.

[SloppyJoe]

So the reason we can't reduce to min clean or descend at 500ft/min when told to expect 15 mins holding at a point 50nm away is because the computer gets confused?

Pathetic!

[bekolblockage]

Pathetic!

Psycho gave you a reasonable response with the caveat that he is not a radar controller in the Centre.
Suggest you grab a copy of Crew News from a few months back where the issue of arrival sequencing was dealt with in detail in one of the articles.

To supplement a few of the other topics raised by an earlier poster:

why force inbound planes to descend 10nm from DOTMI, "when ready" omitted when no one is crossing the outbound corridor?

Please don't confuse the DOTMI corridor (you used the term, so I presume you know about it) which we use for lower level crossing traffic (below F260) with the reason for your early descent.
Generally the reason would be due to convergence of A1 traffic at MAGOG at the same level (I'm willing to bet it's when you are normally at F320?). While it may seem the simple solution is just descend the ELATO traffic earlier, often thats not possible due to other traffic and getting you stepped the wrong way would stuff up the sequence.

why all the "unrestricted"?

See the thread on "HK ATC ---/5000B"
I think I explained it pretty clearly there.
Its being fixed as we speak but at least 2 AIRAC cycles (56 days) are required for promulgation to the coders.

why S6C, and not S6A, nevermind the good old slam dunk with "expect track miles" during quiet hours?

The default track is the S6A. If delay of around 3-4 minutes or more is required, then the normal practice is to give the S6C. It is approximately 4 minutes longer and is supposed to give you some sort of predictability to manage your profile rather than wandering around seemingly aimlessly on vectors. If we gave you the S6A then told you to head 200 from SIERA would you be happier??
The "slam dunk" still happens during "quiet' times. I guess thats why you don't see it as much now. With around 1100 flights a day now, there are few "quiet" hours. Besides, the slam dunk probably resulted in the "too high/too fast" and the "yes we can make it/no we can't, can we have an orbit on final?" one too many times for both your and our Managements' liking.

why climb "TO" FL? why descend "TO" FL? ("to" added)

why climb "" ft? why descend "" ft? ("to" omitted)

The former is ICAO as Psycho says. The latter is incorrect and should not be used.
There seem to be some who find ambiguilty where there is none.
If you understand the ICAO phraseology and realize that the word "TO" is part of the phrase, you cannot confuse the level given or whether the controller meant TO, TWO or TOO.

why runway change when wind VBR? creating a huge queue consequently push back delay

I think Psycho forgot to mention that particularly during summer months, a certain amount of forecasting is going on by the Tower guys to predict the sea breeze effect as it comes and goes in the late morning and early evening. There is nothing worse than waiting for it to completely push through with resultant 10 kt tailwind and multiple go-arounds and rejected line-ups before deciding to switch.

As for the question on pushbacks- he's the expert on that and really you should be asking AA why they continue to design terminals that cause multiple bays to be blocked when pushbacks occur.

why would the third runway increase TKOF/LDG movements when the bottleneck is at base leg

Whether its through PRD airspace redesign or advances in PBN, we should be able to achieve independent base legs. (either from opposite sides or the same side). Independent parallel approaches to the outer runways will be feasible and independent departures from the south and centre runways, with 15 degrees divergence will be as per standard ICAO.
The aptly named "glass wall" certainly has a terrible effect on efficiency, in terms of handling, but in reality it is not an airport capacity constraint.

[Master Caution]

With apologies to Francis Ford Cuppola, I love the smell of a slam dunk in the morning.
Wakes you up.
Helps if you can get ZGGG to release you early to VHHK for early descent.
On the other hand on a clear day you can see the crazy airspace design when you are close enough to be on left base for 07L but you are in another FIR at FL210!

[AtoBsafely]

Psycho and Bekol,

Thank you for your information here. I (and most of my colleagues I hope) appreciate the work that you guys do to sort us out, given the constraints you have. I look forward to the day when we can be given a time for ELATO or ABBEY a few hours out, and make small adjustments early. Wishful thinking!

I appreciate being informed of a time at fix early, so that I can adjust speed. Alternatively, please assign a transition speed as early as possible because it does take a little time to set up.

I think on the ABBEY arrival TD should be FL110 procedural altitude. But LIMES should be 4500 or above.

I love a slam-dunk in the morning; it is like a big WELCOME mat!

[C172Driver]

UNIFO, bekolblockage and psychohk, thanks for your post replies, they are an interesting insight to what is going on behind the people we speak to on frequency. Keep up with the replies and good work!