HK AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL BLOG

[Chingchung]

So, Psycho, as a professional body, will the association issue a letter to members to observe professional discipline?

[psychohk]

Each member of the HKATCA is fully aware of my position as I've expressed it personally at every association forum possible.

The HKATCA currently has approximately 20 members. With our workforce of about 230 staff, we represent less than 10%. Do you think it appropriate/worthwhile then that I write to members?

Any suggestions, please approach me personally.

[Chingchung]

I don't believe you. 20+ members only against 200+ controllers??????? you must be kidding. If I don't pay my membership fee then it would be 19+.

With that less number of members, it is still worthwhile to issue a letter to them.

Another question, mobile phone is 100% against, what about dining at control positions? You are also 100% against it?

[troposcatter]

FOOD ON THE JOB vs The bigger issues!!

It must be ok, Supv and even the VP ATCA does it!
The ATCC smells like a Dai Po Dong!!@ times.
We don't have a cafeteria so what do you expect!!
We have so many staff issues, overloaded sectors now, (and before the summer wx hits,) undermanning, major TOIL & leave accumulation, and no voice!! = 20 ATCA members out of 200+, lets focus on that and NOT minor distractions like food etc..........................
ATCA needs support, so join, gather ranks, and take on the 'bigger' issues with management with one voice, otherwise it's divide and conquer!!

[EARLY-GO]

psycho, what is the association's view on early-go so called late-break? we basically leave the airport at least one hour before the official sign off time. the association should make it a legitimate affair.

[bekolblockage]

Professional pilots and professional controllers know the truth and appreciate your efforts Psycho.
Ignore the trolls.

[psychohk]

HKATCA BLOG

One post only from me on the subject. The HKATCA blog and this pprune re-direct is for one purpose.

TO ALLOW AIRCREW TO CONNECT WITH ATC ON TECHNICAL AND PRACTICAL ASPECTS OF OPERATIONS WITHIN THE HK FIR.

The HKATCA needs members and the current board is attempting to build our relevance and future direction. Be constructive, join and contribute. If you wish to discuss ATC issues, please approach myself or any board member directly.

In future, there will be no replies to ATC internal issues.

PLEASE RESPECT THE AIM OF THE POST

[psychohk]

MEETING STACK DEPARTURE TIMES

If you are in a 10nm hold and are given an Estimated Approach Time The HK AIP ENR 3.6. details the holding patterns and, as you have mentioned a 10 nm outbound leg, you must be referring to a VHHH STAR holding fix. This being so, you’ll be issued an OCT (Onward Clearance Time) not an EAT. An EAT relates to holding for the Instrument Approach Procedure and VHHH’s three IAF holds (LIMES and TD, and GUAVA [RNAV]) have 1 min outbound legs, not 10 nm,

on the last hold, can you cut the outbound leg short so are over the holding fix at the EAT? [Common sense wants me to say yes, but I can find no ICAO reference approving the shortening of the hold to meet the OCT. ATC’s are generally aware of this specific failure in ICAO practices, and this is usually why controllers, in very busy environments, take OCT compliance upon themselves by vectoring in the hold. The HK AIP (ENR 1.3.2) clearly states that OCT compliance is a flight crew responsibility, “It is important that pilots arrange their holding path so as to leave the holding pattern as near as possible to this time in order that an expeditious traffic flow can be maintained.” and, as best practice, some ATC’s endeavor to avoid vectors by stating, “Shorten or lengthen your hold to depart (fix) at ** and resume the STAR.”


Thanks in advance for answering my question. [Unfortunately the Association is unable to provide a definitive answer here and I’d be grateful if any reader has a better, reference-able, solution. Also, the HKATCA can request clarification from IFATCA and possibly have holding pattern shortening approved as ICAO practice.

Both ICAO and IFATCA Technical reps have been approached for an official stance]

[psychohk]

STACK DEPARTURE TIME

The reason why I ask that question was because a couple senior training captains believe that they can exit the hold (cut the outbound leg) to make the OCT at the fix.

However, many junior captains and the majority of the pilots believe that an OCT is the time that they’ll get onwards clearance and that the hold they’ve been cleared to is 10nm. Therefore, they will do a 10nm hold unless told otherwise.

From what I’ve heard from ATC, normally we’ve been radar vectored to exit the hold as opposed told to “shorten/lengthen hold to depart fix at XX”.

So its not just us pilots who are unsure. I guess there is no sure answer. Thanks for looking into it though.


Well a great find of this forum. Clearly this has considerable impact for ATC and sequencing, depending on interpretation by the crew. We will discuss internally, liaise with ICAO and publish an outcome.

Clearly for ATC, if aircrew can do accurate positioning to achieve times, this considerably reduces ATC workload, reduces R/T and minimises vectoring to maintain the intended sequence. Highly desirable.

[Baileys]

Does HK ATC ever take expat applications these days?

[psychohk]

Expat postions HK

Many enquiries, but no positions and not likely to be any. Comprehensive localisation policy now in place.

[psychohk]

QUESTIONS TO HKATCA

For those looking for answers or information off-line

[email protected]

[psychohk]

Phraseology on first contact - calling departures

Several questions on the required or desired phraseology.

ICAO. Doc4444 - 4.11.3 is the guiding document.

Frequency Change

designation of the station being called;
call sign (and “Heavy”);
level, including passing and cleared level if not maintaining;
speed (if assigned by ATC);
additional elements required by the regional authority. (If HK CAD has approved the inclusion of SSR code when entering from China – then that is clearly a regional authority element).

The Hong Kong AIP supersedes ICAO in HK for frequency change and ENR 1.1 2. requires:

callsign,
level,
assigned level.

CALLING DEPARTURES

From the detail above, on first contact with Departures, the SID identifier is not required.

[psychohk]

ATIS information

ATIS information should be stated only when contacting "Approach" (or equivalent)? Correct, but APP is still required to be confirm the ARR ATIS.


In addition, transponder code should be stated ONLY if entering HKG from China. Not required by the AIP but this information is helpful for Surveillance Identification purposes.

[A-GPS]

pyscho, is there SMGCS in hk airport.

[psychohk]

SMGCS

We have equipment named A-SMGCS by the manufacturer

However we don't use it as CONTROL equipment, only as a monitor.

[Ex Douglas Driver]

What about the rumour that HKG has the "taxi on the greens" system (as part of the A-SMGCS?) but it either: doesn't work properly; or takes too many controllers to operate effectively?

[psychohk]

"follow the greens"

We don't have the ability to do this. It is partially possible as most taxiways are sectionalised. By that I mean all of taxiway A or all of taxiway V. You are correct to attempt to use this control technique would be incredibly labour intensive.

I believe 'follow the greens' was a desired concept at HKIA opening, but due to many technical difficulties and the original contractor failing, it has never eventuated.

The future prospect is to data link a clearance to each arrival or departure and it be transposed onto a HUD. This will be to an intermediate holding point or to the bay or holding point for departure. With such a system, there is no corruption. What we are looking at, you should be looking at. This is not always the case with voice clearances. Especially beneficial on exiting a runway with momentum and having a visual presentation of what is required.

[psychohk]

General broadcasts during adverse weather

SF thank you for the compliments on service delivery. This is important for controllers to hear, as it keeps their professionalism bar at a higher level when they know what aircrew prefer.

"All stations, be advised Shenzhen is no longer accepting diversions"

I'm aware this information is useful, but it can be quite impractical to track accurately. Diversions to airfields with limited capacity such as Macau, could change minute by minute. For this type of information to be passed on operational frequencies as well as status updates on HKIA during adverse weather could easily create a safety just with managing separation of aircraft. If it were some definitive information such as an aircraft disabling on the runway in Macau and there is a prolonged outage, this would be possible.

While 'general broadcasts' are very efficient means of distributing information they are not a complete form of communication. That is, there is no read-back from individual aircraft that they have received the information. 'Say agains', more detailed explanations and aircraft acknowledging can rapidly saturate available talk time. This could easily lead to ATC loss of control of the situation.

I would think such information is much more suited to being data linked to the flight deck. There is a package of Collaborative Decision Making (CDM) that is being developed for all stakeholders at HKIA. This type of information should be available to Airline Ops Centres, just as accurately or as up to date as ATC has, via such a medium. They could prioritise it accordingly.

[SMOC]

Tower unless you want the A/C down at B8/9 after landing on 07L, please stop using the term "exit Alpha eastbound" when A/C exit at A7 & A8, I have seen several A/C miss taxiway 'W' from A7 and A8-B7 from A8 as the time it takes to get the call to transfer to gound and then call on a busy ground frequency means A/C inevitably continue along alpha eastbound as instructed.

It would be better to say expect V or W or A8/B7 so A/C know they should slow to a crawl until able to get further instructions.

The first call from ground is usually "you missed the taxiway" which is false as they did as previously instructed until notified otherwise.