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Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

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Old 28th Dec 2012, 01:49   #1 (permalink)
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Paradise
Posts: 173
Thumbs up GC votes needed

AOA members,

please log on and vote for the latest GC nominee. Without >10% membership votes, no result will occur.
As the GC is undermanned at present, every willing participating helps.

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Old 28th Dec 2012, 04:53   #2 (permalink)
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near By
Posts: 25
Judging by the result, I would suggest that the membership has voted!
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 05:39   #3 (permalink)
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Paradise
Posts: 173
CXpletive: true, but apart from the two recent "unsuccessful" nominees, there is another member whose nomination and manifesto may have been overlooked in the holiday season "noise".

I urge all members to login and review this member's manifesto and consider your vote, as the voting window closes shortly.

Democracy... it works b*tches !
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Old 28th Dec 2012, 08:44   #4 (permalink)
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: HKG
Posts: 1,264

there were totally inadequate manifestos for the previous 2 applicants. No flying history or even details of current fleet
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 01:09   #5 (permalink)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: VHHH
Posts: 195
I think they need 1 or 2 more freighter boys on the GC

Last edited by CokeZero; 29th Dec 2012 at 01:09.
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 11:04   #6 (permalink)
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 230
President satisfying his own adgender?

His agenda or somebody's else?

I've seen lots of items on the agenda of outstanding issues listed in updates but nothing ever seems to get done. Can't blame CX for everything the GC hasn't done in the last couple of years.

And yes I do my moaning on the AOA forums as well.
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Old 29th Dec 2012, 14:50   #7 (permalink)
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Over There
Posts: 705
Thanks to the three elected "seniors" and the one employee (the union within the union), the HKAOA is doomed. Better duck and cover as things are going to heat up.
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 03:10   #8 (permalink)
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 230
the HKAOA is doomed?

Hey Dude, not sure it's doomed but if it is, so are we. What about the one employee's assistant? Does anyone know what he does or even who he is? The two of them are getting buckets full of expat package for nothing IMO.
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 03:29   #9 (permalink)
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Over There
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Get enough new GC members in the union to squash the not so fab 4 and it should recover! The employee we all need to worry about is DD.

Last edited by cpdude; 30th Dec 2012 at 03:31.
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Old 30th Dec 2012, 23:47   #10 (permalink)
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: smogville
Posts: 30
AOA thanks

Oh thank you AOA for:
Credit free Reserve (Yeah they won't abuse that!)
Pitiful credit for leave (No workstacking I'm sure)
Our new Rostering Practises (who only wanted to work 700 hrs a year)
All the accomplishments of DD and JF, really see the value in these guys
RA65 without a 25 year housing agreement (thats not going to bite us in the future)
Basings disasters
Still not having the balls to say don't work on G days
Better stop getting a headache over all these improvements to my contract
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 00:10   #11 (permalink)
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 172
From what I hear the current Freighter Captains on the GC are basically only interested in their own lot. Can't see much of the outstanding issues being sorted whilst self serving GC members only work on the issues affecting them. They are trying to get the numbers up due to them lacking votes.
I read their manifestos and they c,aimed they were keen to work on other issues etc, but alas if it ain't about Freighter guys coming to HKG on expat terms, they are not interested.
Done my time in the GC, it ain't easy as some of you all think. DD doing best he can with the tools he has. W need strong leadership from the Prez and by all accounts we don't have it this time. GD is good man and trying but I believe he won't lead us out of the current mess we are in. Good luck though GD and to the rest of the GC, but remember who you are all representing!!
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 05:07   #12 (permalink)
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: cloudcuckooland
Posts: 88
Agree. As far as I can work out FCN's relocating back to HK want expat terms AND to stay as Captains, even though there are hundreds of HK based F/O's that are senior to them. I guess the same might hold true for Freighter F/O's moving to HK. There are probably lots of S/O's senior to them.
The bottom line is that if you move to HK on expat terms then you get the fleet/rank that your seniority allows. END OF STORY. I've seen this issue being discussed elsewhere & the only question I had was; "why is it being discussed?".

Last edited by 1200firm; 31st Dec 2012 at 05:08.
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 07:30   #13 (permalink)
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: hong kong
Posts: 134
1200 firm..(you sure it wasn't 1350 smooth ?) Amen to that..

Last edited by jacobus; 31st Dec 2012 at 07:31.
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 08:57   #14 (permalink)
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Space
Posts: 462
So: Who is going to propose a motion DIRECTING the GC in which order to handle the issues, one at a time with everyone working together until it is resolved, with a list of issues and priorities that is convenient and important to US rather than to certain individuals or to management?

As long as we keep giving into management's delay tactics and letting things slip through the cracks for years, we will continue to fail at making progress.

For example, there is no reason to wait for the "new" FTLs before negotiating RPs just because management wants to wait. Why do we just go along with management's preference to wait? This pretend "need" to wait has gone on for years and could go on for many more. Enough is enough. If one day something more restrictive comes up in the new FTLs, then fine, that will apply too. If something is less restrictive, then tough luck, the RPs apply already. More complex things can be renegotiated then, if necessary, and if we want.

The list of stalled issues is right there on the AOA home page. The utter lack of progress is absurd. Isn't it time to learn something from the FAU, to some extent, regarding public relations and moving issues right onto the CEO's desk and/or the newspapers and/or the legal system to stop management from stalling everything for years?

Does anyone think that there will suddenly be a variety of conclusive negotiations next week, month or year about SLS, housing, freighter PX, FO BPP, base closures, pay, FTA instructors, etc.?

Avoiding legal battles is not the answer: It is the only thing that moves forward outside of management's control. And when it's worth it and we're right, it usually works. Entire careers are passing us by while we "wait" for no reason. Enough is enough.

Last edited by Curtain rod; 31st Dec 2012 at 08:57.
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 14:40   #15 (permalink)
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Over There
Posts: 705
There is so much to respond to I don't know where to start.

I agree that a 6-7 year seniority Freighter CN should not receive CN expat benefits in HKG but should he be forced on terms worth less than SO benefits? We all cry about seniority being the basis then why doesn't the HKAOA fight to ensure benefits are awarded in accordance with seniority? IE. he should receive the package of benefits afforded to his seniority which would be FO's benefits at 6-7 years. This would be fair to everyone to reinforce the basis of seniority and those that oppose that are still looking for retribution which will continue to hurt any seniority argument in other issues.

JF hasn't been employed by the HKAOA for over 6 months now. It's entirely a DD show.

Curtain Rod...
What you are suggesting is basically what's been attempted for many years. It's proven not to work but many continue to sing the same tune. Also, you make it sound like it's entirely up to the GC. Well, in one respect it is but they can't direct or control anything anymore.

I'll throw a question out here to everyone...
Why is it the HKAOA can't even sit down with the Company and discuss something as simple as Freighter PXing but the Canadians were able to negotiate an entire CA (COS)? Do you think a different approach was taken or do you think they slammed the company every opportunity they got to win their contract?

Many of you have been through a messy divorce. Did you accomplish more by taking an aggressive stance in courts or do you think the individuals who practiced reason and tried to stay calm came out with more than their shirts? It's all about human nature and respecting your fellow person even if you can't stand them!

The not so fab 4 haven't learned this and I fear they won't ever learn this tact. This is why relations with the Company are bound to get much worse for the HKAOA types rather then better.

As for the Canadians, the HKAOA needs to take a page from their playbook and learn to communicate without anger, frustration or threats. They need to rebuild the trust with the company and vice versa. Only then can issues be resolved and the threats from the GMA will subside.

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Old 31st Dec 2012, 15:28   #16 (permalink)
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: HKG
Posts: 1,264

Pray tell us all what the Canadians got?

Next, tell us what they gave away?

Then tell us what COS improvement we were about to get that they blew and prevented everyone getting?

The only reason they were able to sit down with CX is because they were using Canadian Labour Laws and the Aussies are talking because they are using Australian Labour Laws. If you can tell me what the HKAOA can use to make CX sit and discuss items I'll be really impressed.

We were promised by the CEO 18 months ago that there would be more working between the AOA and CX. Unfortunately he is not prepared to stand by his promises.

We are all a team of course!!!
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 15:58   #17 (permalink)
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 3.5 from TD
Posts: 879
If you can tell me what the HKAOA can use to make CX sit and discuss items I'll be really impressed.
That's easy, contract compliance.
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 16:10   #18 (permalink)
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: HKG
Posts: 1,264

Are you a management mole?

From the other thread
"Most people practice it already without shouting about it. Of those who don't, the ones that would change their practices are such a small percentage it will make sod-all difference."
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 16:46   #19 (permalink)
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Over There
Posts: 705
Hi BusyB,

From what I understand "they" got a Canadian Contract which surpassed the onshoring COS08. Things like loss of license to age 65 instead of 60 and stuff like that. As for giving away, I'm sure someone will jump in with claims of huge giveaways but nothing that I have heard of was given away which is proven to be a loss!

As for what COS improvements "we were about to get but that they blew and prevented everyone getting?" I haven't a clue what you are referring to and what you feel they lost for us so please explain?

It is true the only reason they were able to sit down with the Company was because of the CLC requirements. This was necessary because the Company initially painted them with the same brush as the HKAOA and expected a hard nosed negotiation stance. Instead, they were met by an open-minded negotiations team which was willing to discuss needs and desires from both sides. I also heard this new style of calm was disrupted a few times by an individual "employed by the HKAOA" and he was then asked not to return. Could this be the spark which eventually led to the AOA break-up?

As for the breakup, do you know that the Canadians have been trying to communicate with the HKAOA but they continue to block their every move? This all along while the EXCO Prez continues to request jumpseats on flights to YVR operated by Canadian based CN's and I understand he has been rather successful. Good thing they don't hold a grudge like most of us do! Is this a possible learning point?

Communications is key to any relationship and more than ever we need a GC led by strong leadership willing to communicate in a delicate manner. Getting your propaganda posted in the local papers and being primed to attack at every possible moment is not going to get you anywhere with the company. Granted, the Company has had a bad record of being trustworthy but now is the time to extend the olive branch and turn a new page. What have we got to lose?

Sqwak 7700, if the HKAOA publicly endorsed contract compliance right now the lives of every CX pilot would diminish immediately. The company doesn't care how much it would cost to slam any such movement at this time IMO.

Not really sure why I even bother answering with a comment like that but if they were "moles" do you really think they would take the Company to court with a gross contract violation? Yes they did and they won! Try talking to a Canadian based pilot one day and you may get your facts straight unless it's more fun for you to continue believing a tall tale!

Anyways, making accusations like that is neither helpful, accurate or even true.


Last edited by cpdude; 31st Dec 2012 at 16:52.
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Old 31st Dec 2012, 17:29   #20 (permalink)
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: HKG
Posts: 1,264

How about "Return of Seniority" for those who lose their licence & then regain it. Not as good as, but similar to, the Air Canada condition that has seen two of our Sim Instructors return to AC as Captains. This was all teed up when AOAC said "we're not agreeing to that as we can do better" and got nothing!!

How's your scope deal compare with that of the best of the CX contracts?

I can't imagine what an "olive branch" consists of when CX won't discuss anything unless forced to.
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