Fragrant HarbourA forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.
I'm not interested in this going on forever. I do, however, think there is room for both optimism (as Liam addressed) and realism. They are not mutually exclusive regardless of this group's history or your own jaded perspective. I would rather be a "dreamer" than what you are because I believe this job is and will continue to be much better than a contract job. We have and will continue to do better than market forces even with the less than perfectly unified group we have now. Note that guys like you do nothing to help things, even if you are not a scab.
In closing I'll ask you (and anyone who would like to answer), would the company rather have with 2800 Ovals or 2800 cxorcists in their quest to lower costs? I think we all know the answer to that one. Your pessimistic attitude serves only to embrace the conciliation the company strives for. I'll leave you with some things this group has done well over the last few years:
- membership drive to over 80% from 50%
- informal integration of the LPF into the AOA
- educational allowance and HKPA for non-expat pilots
- SLS 2009 which was repaid (mostly)
- 25 year housing (even if it is not in writing)
- AOA access to new joiners
- choice for RA55 and BPP or RA65
- valiant losing effort in the SO BPP case
- pay rise in 2011 with no concessions
- "favorable" result for AMS based pilots
- strong HKALPA and AOA influence on new FTLs
- freighter PX win without legal expense in court
- collective bargaining negotiations in both Oz and Canada
- undetermined, but hopeful, result for Paris based pilots
I'm sure I missed some. Feel free to add to the list...
- membership drive to over 80% from 50% And exactly why is 8 cowards better than 5?
- informal integration of the LPF into the AOA Great.
- educational allowance and HKPA for non-expat pilots the RDO took care of that without the AOAs help.
- SLS 2009 which was repaid (mostly) and who fixed this for the other 20,000 HK staff? the AOA?
- 25 year housing (even if it is not in writing) you're joking, right? the AOA has been camped outside the DFOs door for 3 years trying to get this honored, only to hear is the howling laughter from inside. Do you recall what 'hook' was attached to this little scam?
- AOA access to new joiners see post about packing more cowards into the same boat. Numbers don't achieve anything. Achievements do.
- choice for RA55 and BPP or RA65 awesome choice for Canada and Australia. Where did the "extension on current terms" argument go? So now we can choose to work 10 extra years for basically the same total remuneration we would have had with RA55 / bypass pay combination. I work 10 years extra, but consequentially get my command 7 years later? where do I sign? Oh, I lose my BPP?
- valiant losing effort in the SO BPP case By blowing millions on dollars to fumble the ball in the end zone?
- pay rise in 2011 with no concessions we argued for 34%. We received increases individually varying between 0.6% and 14.4%. For some, the AOA dues surpass their payrise.
- "favorable" result for AMS based pilots having their base shut down and taking a massive paycut? "favorable" to who? The company? Senior officers in HK waiting for a base? For certain European individuals?
- strong HKALPA and AOA influence on new FTLs Agreed.
- freighter PX win without legal expense in court CX lawyers advising the 9th floor managers that they are, in face, violating our CoS and therefore will lose in court might have influenced this one. The company successfully managed to ignore and appease the AOAs scary letters for the better part of a decade; it took individual members filings of D&G proceedings to get this ball rolling, not the AOAs foot-stomping.
- collective bargaining negotiations in both Oz and Canada Yes. That went real well, didn't it. AOAC split and ran off with the loot while the AOAA faces 'permanent relocation.'
- undetermined, but hopeful, result for Paris based pilots too little too late I'm afraid.
I'll add some more to the list:
-Failure to stop C scale
-Failure to stop BCF production outsourced to AHK and ACC
-Failure to stop DECs
I'm sure I missed some. Feel free to add to the list...
Last edited by whackthemole; 13th Sep 2012 at 07:50.
Whackthemole - a fair esponse to cxorsist's post. May I add a few more to your list/
Failure to stop B Scales Failure to stop ASL Failure with the 49er's episode
I was with the company for twenty years but I was a member of the the AOA for only 9 years. I ceased being a member of the AOA after the introduction of ASL, when the company decided not renew my (and 41 other Flight Engineer's) contract and then gave me the opportunity to apply for my old job with a 50% pay cut. I took the opportunity - I needed a job.
Curtain Rod, if you are suggesting that the AOA could do nothing, then why bother to join.
I always, however, recommended new Captains to join the AOA, only for the sake of legal protection in the event of an incident/accident.
To hope for anything more is a pipedream.
I should point out that there were some very good people in the AOA during my time and I do have the utmost respect for them. Nigel D. springs to mind immediately.
There were also a few self serving people and for those I have nothing but contempt.
However, my criticism of the AOA is not directed at the people but of the Association's effectiveness.
Curtain rod, industrial action is the only tool available and we know that that is not going to happen. You can't even get people to stop working on a G Day.
As has been stated many times on this forum there is no unity within the pilot group, self interest dominates.
This being the case the AOA can/could do nothing.
Other than to build up a war chest for future legal actions, why bother to join?
Last edited by FERetd; 13th Sep 2012 at 19:53.
Reason: Added a war chest for legal action comment.
Curtain Rod, I think that our little exchange has run its course.
In closing, I reiterate that the HKAOA did nothing for me (or my 41 colleagues). Whether it did nothing or achieved nothing is really irrelevant. The fact is that the Association was ineffective.
I was surprised, disappointed and upset when the AOA did nothing for the plight of 42 F/Es (not to mention the effect that ASL had on upgrades for F/Os and S/Os) - that is when I ceased being a member of the Association.
The Ts & Cs that I "enjoyed" after twenty years were significantly worse than those that I enjoyed when I joined the company.
However, if the AOA floats your boat, then give it your money.
I do remember 5-4-3, however if the membership votes to accept a change, then that is the nature of democracy.
In the case of 5-4-3, the company was very determined to do away with it and I appreciate it is perhaps a simplification to say we voted it away, however the majority accepted RPs that did not have 5-4-3. The majority accepted that the HDP/overtime provisions compensated them for the loss of 5-4-3. Such is the nature of the give and take in the negotiation process.
Applying that principle further, I suppose if the company offered a price for a three-month rolling average overtime that was acceptable to the majority of the membership, then such is the nature of a democracy.
If the NY base opened and the company stipulated a unique overtime threshold for that base, if some members found that acceptable, should the AOA oppose the Base?
Most of the bases have unique features. Some bad, some good. The Australians get long-service leave, however I don't. Should I be upset over that? Of course not, it just compensates them for having a shoite cricket team
Would somebody please explain to me how YYZ base did or does not have the same radiation problem that JFK or ORD base would? That always seemed like the lamest excuse, and the fact that so many bought it for so long astounds me.
Yes the AOA should oppose the JFK base if it's terms are below standard. Those sub-standard terms affect everyone else that chooses not to be on the JFK base.
Exactly,based deals on different overtime thresholds mean we HKG based crews will lose our overtime also as they fill the base and use and abuse those guys
Lesser deals for ANY of our colleagues, even if only a small group, becomes the benchmark for the rest of us.
The bean counters are constantly trying to reduce our conditions. I know that sometimes stopping them is not easy, but at the very least can we stop helping them by accepting mini side deals.......
Exactamundo
