Star Chamber bitten
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Star Chamber bitten
With the closing of the Paris base a former star chamber member ( that fired 49 of our fellow pilots) is leading the Paris based guys in fighting the company about the closure. He helped get rid of our friends because they had the guts to stand up to the company." How dare they not do what the company wants..fire them". NOW all of a sudden the company is closing his base and he is going against the management he so dearly loved. As previous 747 FM he helped fire our fellow pilots for doing the same thing. Unreal
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Remember the Star Chamber was a voting system. Therefore how do you know which way he voted?
Personally I think he is one of the finest, genuine gentleman around. He has a year to go and is putting his time into helping others with little to gain himself.
He is one of only a few ex Cathay managers, whom I would certainly follow into battle.
Personally I think he is one of the finest, genuine gentleman around. He has a year to go and is putting his time into helping others with little to gain himself.
He is one of only a few ex Cathay managers, whom I would certainly follow into battle.
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He has a year to go and is putting his time into helping others with little to gain himself.
Karma is a bitch.
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Many of the Star Chamber managers were actually ordered to be there or be fired themselves....not that I feel sorry for them. You have to be cut from a certain mold to want to be a manager in the first place.
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This doesn't surprise me.
He took the "poisoned chalice" of becoming a CP from "the Screaming Skull" in the immediate aftermath of 2001. Rebuilding morale from absolute "ground zero" really took some leadership. Along the way he stuck his neck out and rescued the careers of a few individuals. He could have just continued to keep his head down
It comes down to the age old dilemma of how to work in a regime you disagree with. If you strictly hold to your moral high ground, you may get burned out quickly and cast aside early. However, if you pick your battles, then maybe you can last a bit longer and make a more significant difference? Or maybe you will become the "king of shallow smiles" and end up becoming a DF0 or Director of C@$A somewhere.
Personally, I don't want to ever be sitting in an office thinking through how in 5 minutes time, I am going to tell a fellow Pilot they are "fu#cked".
Is there not some irony in the current HKG court coverage over the 49ers?.
He took the "poisoned chalice" of becoming a CP from "the Screaming Skull" in the immediate aftermath of 2001. Rebuilding morale from absolute "ground zero" really took some leadership. Along the way he stuck his neck out and rescued the careers of a few individuals. He could have just continued to keep his head down
It comes down to the age old dilemma of how to work in a regime you disagree with. If you strictly hold to your moral high ground, you may get burned out quickly and cast aside early. However, if you pick your battles, then maybe you can last a bit longer and make a more significant difference? Or maybe you will become the "king of shallow smiles" and end up becoming a DF0 or Director of C@$A somewhere.
Personally, I don't want to ever be sitting in an office thinking through how in 5 minutes time, I am going to tell a fellow Pilot they are "fu#cked".
Is there not some irony in the current HKG court coverage over the 49ers?.
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I agree that the "Star Chamber" was a voting system and I've heard if it wasn't for blokes like IR and JMac then quite a few more may have gone. Personally I always found him to be hard but fair. Hate the game not the players.
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Not attempting to justify what was an abhorrent and tawdry affair. I will say however that JMac deserves credit for standing up for several potential victims. He was his own man and for that I am grateful. Missed by many.
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All Managers to be Non-Pilots???
1. An airline needs managers.
2. If we think wholly non-pilot managers would be a bad idea, we logically will have pilots as managers.
3. If you concur with 1. and 2. give the guys a break, someone has to do it, and can only be expected to do their best for the team, not fall on their sword.
4. If you disagree with 1. and 2. suggest alternatives.
5. No, I'm not a manager.
2. If we think wholly non-pilot managers would be a bad idea, we logically will have pilots as managers.
3. If you concur with 1. and 2. give the guys a break, someone has to do it, and can only be expected to do their best for the team, not fall on their sword.
4. If you disagree with 1. and 2. suggest alternatives.
5. No, I'm not a manager.
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A typical PPRuNe "Alternative" - Any More?
I recall you made the same argument at Nurenberg.
1. Any army needs officers.
2. If we think wholly civilian officers would be a bad idea, we logically will have military men as officers.
3. If you concur with 1. and 2. give the guys a break, someone (had) to do it, and can only be expected to do their best for the team, not fall on their sword.
4. If you disagree with 1. and 2. suggest alternatives.
5. No, I'm not an officer. (But a loyal party member.)
Last edited by whackthemole; 29th Aug 2012 at 16:38.
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Wackthemole-
Thank you for offering that analogy to White's flawed logic proposition.
If a manager is a pilot, then I would expect he or she to stand firm on some issues from time to time as opposed to doing everything the boss upstairs wants. After all, that is the benefit to having a pilot in that position given our unique knowledge.
Thank you for offering that analogy to White's flawed logic proposition.
If a manager is a pilot, then I would expect he or she to stand firm on some issues from time to time as opposed to doing everything the boss upstairs wants. After all, that is the benefit to having a pilot in that position given our unique knowledge.
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Did a few Line checks with IR back in my awesome CX days. The guy was nice, polite and a no nonsense Gentleman. HOWEVER anyone who can be affiliated with the disgraceful past of the Cathay Pathetic management should not expect sympathy from any fellow colleague pilot. Period.
History may be history - but its not forgotten.
History may be history - but its not forgotten.
Yes, and anyone who had a run in with the Screaming Skull was on the list.
And did any of these individuals have the balls to personally tell 49ers that they were fired, or did they leave it to the office staff?
The first thing one 49er knew something was up when the turnstile into Hello Kitty City wouldn't let him in.
A shameful and cowardly episode that forever taints anyone associated with this act of pilot against pilot.
And did any of these individuals have the balls to personally tell 49ers that they were fired, or did they leave it to the office staff?
The first thing one 49er knew something was up when the turnstile into Hello Kitty City wouldn't let him in.
A shameful and cowardly episode that forever taints anyone associated with this act of pilot against pilot.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 29th Aug 2012 at 23:48.
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A real man of integrity would have stand up during the Star chambers of during any of the subsequent court cases. A previous B777 Chief pilot and Star chamber member was also " not a bad guy", but only came to the A.O.A. members assistance when dog ate dog in management.
Great men show their strength in time of need of others, not just when the need affects them personally.
Now I.R. has his back to the wall and want to be one of us, sorry , you will always be one of them.
Great men show their strength in time of need of others, not just when the need affects them personally.
Now I.R. has his back to the wall and want to be one of us, sorry , you will always be one of them.
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Whackthemole
Fair Analagy, but 'Alternatives'?
Here's a thought off the top of my head, pre-caffeine - How bout we don't Ostracise the pilots who become our managers, (I think we've accepted pilot managers are at least a necessary evil) not sure why this is the protocol at the moment but also - keep them in the union? Maybe they would feel more invested in the community if they were allowed to remain in it, for everyone's benefit, and don't let's look back and think 'well X, Y and Z were always gonna be Hard Ass Company Men, look around you at the future.
Billythekid
I agree with - "if a manager is a pilot......I would expect he or she to stand firm on some issues from time to time as opposed to doing everything the boss upstairs wants" ; but, as that- in fact - doesn't often happen, how do we try to create the environment where it can?
I'm not sure if the Union thing is a good idea or even possible but I personally feel these pages are best used for brainstorming solutions not historical analysis/anger, and I certainly don't wish to offend any involved in the disgraceful 49ers incident, ( when incidentally, I was around )
Fair Analagy, but 'Alternatives'?
Here's a thought off the top of my head, pre-caffeine - How bout we don't Ostracise the pilots who become our managers, (I think we've accepted pilot managers are at least a necessary evil) not sure why this is the protocol at the moment but also - keep them in the union? Maybe they would feel more invested in the community if they were allowed to remain in it, for everyone's benefit, and don't let's look back and think 'well X, Y and Z were always gonna be Hard Ass Company Men, look around you at the future.
Billythekid
I agree with - "if a manager is a pilot......I would expect he or she to stand firm on some issues from time to time as opposed to doing everything the boss upstairs wants" ; but, as that- in fact - doesn't often happen, how do we try to create the environment where it can?
I'm not sure if the Union thing is a good idea or even possible but I personally feel these pages are best used for brainstorming solutions not historical analysis/anger, and I certainly don't wish to offend any involved in the disgraceful 49ers incident, ( when incidentally, I was around )
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keep them in the union? Maybe they would feel more invested in the community if they were allowed to remain in it, for everyone's benefit,
and don't let's look back and think 'well X, Y and Z were always gonna be Hard Ass Company Men, look around you at the future.
they will just switch their legence as it benefit them.