HKAOA Out of control..
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HKAOA Out of control..
What is the point of paying membership dues when the organisation is slicing itself into pieces? Without unity, a union/association is worthless...
Although I don't like it, I think it may be time to face the reality and capitulate. I've paid for nothing for long enough...
Although I don't like it, I think it may be time to face the reality and capitulate. I've paid for nothing for long enough...
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Maybe "nothing" is a good thing. Perhaps without the AOA, things would descend into a very rapid decline. That isn't a risk I am willing to take, quite frankly. The insurance is also pretty attractive.
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777-300ER,
So we have one, perhaps temporary, setback and you are ready to cut bait and run. I'm not sure you are the type of member we need anyhow. Hope you can get that Canadian base sometime soon so you can join those making the same decision you are. Make sure you turn in your lanyard when you resign and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Yet another spineless CX pilot!!! When will we ever learn?
So we have one, perhaps temporary, setback and you are ready to cut bait and run. I'm not sure you are the type of member we need anyhow. Hope you can get that Canadian base sometime soon so you can join those making the same decision you are. Make sure you turn in your lanyard when you resign and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Yet another spineless CX pilot!!! When will we ever learn?
Last edited by cxorcist; 29th May 2012 at 23:05.
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777-300ER,
So we have one, perhaps temporary, setback and you are ready to cut bait and run. I'm not sure you are the type of member we need anyhow. Hope you can get that Canadian base sometime soon so you can join those making the same decision you are. Make sure you turn in your lanyard when you resign and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Yet another spineless CX pilot!!! When will we ever learn?
So we have one, perhaps temporary, setback and you are ready to cut bait and run. I'm not sure you are the type of member we need anyhow. Hope you can get that Canadian base sometime soon so you can join those making the same decision you are. Make sure you turn in your lanyard when you resign and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Yet another spineless CX pilot!!! When will we ever learn?
One of the primary issues among the membership over the years has been unity, or lack thereof. Different members have different agendas. This is somewhat normal, however in our case we have allowed these differences to divide us from a collective bargaining standpoint. Because of this weakness (which is engineered by the company to some extent), our ability to band together and make significant achievements has been weak at best. This latest development takes the problem one step further by expanding the divide to include our leadership. Not only that, but it is apparent from the latest updates that these divisions have been ongoing for some time now which means that resources which could have been used productively have been wasted. Anyone that isn't deeply concerned by this needs to give their head a shake.
Now with that all said, NO I'm not actually going to quit. I'm just venting my frustration. I've felt this way a few times over the years, but ultimately I agree with you. Things may not get better any time soon, but leaving the AOA certainly won't help the situation.
Seems to me that you should ask your Canadian mates why they decided to leave the AOA umbrella, unlike AOAAUS. 
HKAOA didn't kick them out.
HKAOA didn't kick them out.
Last edited by nitpicker330; 30th May 2012 at 03:57.
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So how is the setting terms and conditions that you know are unacceptable any different than kicking someone out?
The Canadians cannot accept that the collective agreement isn't closed until all global issues are settled. Period. Full Stop.
HKAOA pulls a big hissy fit,
takes their toys and goes home. Dennis told them that is how the game works. No compromise.
The Canadians cannot accept that the collective agreement isn't closed until all global issues are settled. Period. Full Stop.
HKAOA pulls a big hissy fit,
takes their toys and goes home. Dennis told them that is how the game works. No compromise.
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I think Mr Frogman, you will find that you are wrong. It was the HKAOA that delivered an ultimatum. The Canadian base requires closure on their negotiations for a variety of reasons. Full stop. The HKAOA didn't want that.
I, and many of my colleagues, support this decision. In fact, many of us were growing tired of the HKAOA not properly representing those of us on the base.
I, and many of my colleagues, support this decision. In fact, many of us were growing tired of the HKAOA not properly representing those of us on the base.
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For cxorcist
I will answer your questions. It is rather simple, really.
The contract offered to us in no way meets the requisite Canadian standard. It is vague and makes fleeting references to the Canadian Labour Code. Probably of more importance there are a number of issues detailed in the revised contract that must be clarified sooner rather than later. That is all, nothing sinister. And, no, the team are not negotiating one off benefits for the Canadian Based pilots.
We on the Canadian base need closure, not a run on vague contract that is dependent on the HKAOA resolving many of their own issues. Many, that will take years to resolve.
So there you have it. And no, the base is not going to close.
The contract offered to us in no way meets the requisite Canadian standard. It is vague and makes fleeting references to the Canadian Labour Code. Probably of more importance there are a number of issues detailed in the revised contract that must be clarified sooner rather than later. That is all, nothing sinister. And, no, the team are not negotiating one off benefits for the Canadian Based pilots.
We on the Canadian base need closure, not a run on vague contract that is dependent on the HKAOA resolving many of their own issues. Many, that will take years to resolve.
So there you have it. And no, the base is not going to close.
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WCC,
So the next logical question is... What happens when the HKAOA does negotiate different "Global Issues" rules to the ones in the Canadian CBA? Will the company be required to administer two different sets of rules? We have already seen what happens when base administration becomes overly "complex" - a la AMS. Does this increase the security of the base or decrease it?
I think the assumption that the two Canadian bases cannot and will not close is foolhardy. The company will play the Canadian based pilots against the rest of the group as much as possible. Do you really think the threat of base closure will not be part of this?
So the next logical question is... What happens when the HKAOA does negotiate different "Global Issues" rules to the ones in the Canadian CBA? Will the company be required to administer two different sets of rules? We have already seen what happens when base administration becomes overly "complex" - a la AMS. Does this increase the security of the base or decrease it?
I think the assumption that the two Canadian bases cannot and will not close is foolhardy. The company will play the Canadian based pilots against the rest of the group as much as possible. Do you really think the threat of base closure will not be part of this?
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Jizz, that's interesting, because if AOAC have signed off on things like the freighter Pxing and they come to HKG; if they do, then those guys will be the one's doing the Pxing. I can just see the company saying they agreed to that during on shoring agreement, therefor it still applies.
Actually an agreement made under the Canadian Labor laws would be invalid here anyway, unless of course they agreed whilst based in Canada, or any OTHER base within the CX network, then perhaps they may have to live with freighter PXing forever?
In any case, we should just continue to resolve the PXing issue as if they weren't part of it.
Actually an agreement made under the Canadian Labor laws would be invalid here anyway, unless of course they agreed whilst based in Canada, or any OTHER base within the CX network, then perhaps they may have to live with freighter PXing forever?
In any case, we should just continue to resolve the PXing issue as if they weren't part of it.
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Bob H,
They (Canadians) are not a part of it, not anymore. This was what they chose. Let them work their own deal. If they want to end up doing all the DAC/HAN freighter patterns and similar crap, so be it. They want to save the YVR freighter captain base, this might just be the cost.
No ill-will, but they get what they ask for... Being separated from the whole will definitely cost them in more ways than we/they can imagine. I think a time will come when they come crawling back to the HKAOA table.
They (Canadians) are not a part of it, not anymore. This was what they chose. Let them work their own deal. If they want to end up doing all the DAC/HAN freighter patterns and similar crap, so be it. They want to save the YVR freighter captain base, this might just be the cost.
No ill-will, but they get what they ask for... Being separated from the whole will definitely cost them in more ways than we/they can imagine. I think a time will come when they come crawling back to the HKAOA table.
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For cxorcist,
I do enjoy a meaty discussion, but admit I miss poking the anonymous name callers.
Ah, Global Issues. It is naive to think that CX will not negotiate different terms for the various groups. There are already countless contracts and conditions so CX is getting good at it. Just add a few more clerks at HKD 6000 a month. Easy. Remember, the Canadian base has the benefit of much stricter labour laws than that of HKG. And an employer is required by law to negotiate in good faith. None of this take it or leave it nonsense. Now that we are a separate entity, we are free to negotiate whatever we feel is in the best interest of our members. Your leadership has seen to that. As a cohesive group, CX had an obligation to treat each group the same, but again the recent HKAOA decision put an end to that. Imagine how the HKG membership will feel about their esteemed committee when our benefits surpass yours. What better way to undermine the HKG union than offer something better to the Canadian base. What will you do, go on strike. Ha ha
AMS is a very poor example as there were very few members there. Shut down the base, in fact I would be disappointed if CX didn't suggest that. It is CX negotiating 101. I know that many of you find comprehensive thought a challenge but imagine this if you will. After reaching a fairly negotiated contract, bargained in good faith by both parties, CX decides to shut the base on Jan 01 as Jizz baby as suggested. Imagine the severance package, I love it. 365 G days, yeah baby! Where are the keys to the boat, I 'm outta here.
I could go on, but I think you get the picture.
I do enjoy a meaty discussion, but admit I miss poking the anonymous name callers.
Ah, Global Issues. It is naive to think that CX will not negotiate different terms for the various groups. There are already countless contracts and conditions so CX is getting good at it. Just add a few more clerks at HKD 6000 a month. Easy. Remember, the Canadian base has the benefit of much stricter labour laws than that of HKG. And an employer is required by law to negotiate in good faith. None of this take it or leave it nonsense. Now that we are a separate entity, we are free to negotiate whatever we feel is in the best interest of our members. Your leadership has seen to that. As a cohesive group, CX had an obligation to treat each group the same, but again the recent HKAOA decision put an end to that. Imagine how the HKG membership will feel about their esteemed committee when our benefits surpass yours. What better way to undermine the HKG union than offer something better to the Canadian base. What will you do, go on strike. Ha ha
AMS is a very poor example as there were very few members there. Shut down the base, in fact I would be disappointed if CX didn't suggest that. It is CX negotiating 101. I know that many of you find comprehensive thought a challenge but imagine this if you will. After reaching a fairly negotiated contract, bargained in good faith by both parties, CX decides to shut the base on Jan 01 as Jizz baby as suggested. Imagine the severance package, I love it. 365 G days, yeah baby! Where are the keys to the boat, I 'm outta here.
I could go on, but I think you get the picture.
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WCC,
Please understand, I wish no ill-will towards the Canadians post break-away. In fact, I hope you see all kinds of improvements both for yourselves and to provide pressure for our own. That said, I think there is a fair amount of naïveté in this decision that will become obvious over time.
Please understand, I wish no ill-will towards the Canadians post break-away. In fact, I hope you see all kinds of improvements both for yourselves and to provide pressure for our own. That said, I think there is a fair amount of naïveté in this decision that will become obvious over time.
Last edited by cxorcist; 31st May 2012 at 03:05.
It's all very well having better labor laws, better conditions and iron clad contracts, etc, but just remember this: bases will continue to exist only if the company sees a long term benefit for the business.
Closing the bases will obviously cause some short term pain, but if the company decides (rightly or wrongly) that the long term benefits are greater, then guess what???
Closing the bases will obviously cause some short term pain, but if the company decides (rightly or wrongly) that the long term benefits are greater, then guess what???
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This has nothing to do with base closure, but more to do with Canadian CBA negotiation rules. When the CBA is as close to being closed as the Canadian one and then the AOAC decide to pull back to deal with "Global Issues" for our Federation brothers on other bases it can be seen as not bargaining in good faith. In which case it COULD lead to a worst case scenario of a lock out of Canadian pilots. Would our HK brothers stand with their Canadian colleagues if this were to happen? Would 888 and 838 still be manned? This is a process of Canadianizing our current COS and ensuring we have the labour protections available to us that come with having a ratified CBA, this does not mean that "Global Issues" will not still be addressed at he appropriate time.
The reason the OZ bases are not in the same position as the Canadians is that there negotiations are far behind the Canadians. It will be interesting to see how things pan out for them when they catch up.
I do hope in due time that cooler heads may prevail or possibly a change in leadership that will result in a new more balanced federation that will benefit all the pilots regardless of base.
The reason the OZ bases are not in the same position as the Canadians is that there negotiations are far behind the Canadians. It will be interesting to see how things pan out for them when they catch up.
I do hope in due time that cooler heads may prevail or possibly a change in leadership that will result in a new more balanced federation that will benefit all the pilots regardless of base.