Fragrant HarbourA forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.
I see where Dragonair is hiring DEFO's anyone there have any idea the time to upgrade? and is upgrading a straight seniority thing or do they use another method to determine when you go from right to left seat? While I'm at it, do you have to live in HK to get the housing allowance and what type of assistance is given towards children's education, and again does that education have to take place in HK. Thanks in advance for any info
You need 5000 hours and its seniority based, so everyone ahead of you that has 5000 hours must have a go at the command before is your turn. There is hardly any expansion and hardly any retirements so it will take some time before it's your turn, +10 years is the latest guess.
Failure rate is among the highest in the industry....and it is not because of the pilots.........
Kathey is correct. Probably 10 Years for command. Also remember there is no housing on new contract. There is a small allowance but will not cover the cost if you join and have a family. There is a child education allowance that will cover some of the cost but the problem is to get a seat in a school. I would suggest you check with someone you know in KA before you consider the job. The 10 weeks leave is great. The 42 other weeks are not!!
Dragonair is part of the Cathay Pacific Group so they will upgrade whoever they like, whenever they like depending on who will accept their latest rubbish 'package' - designed to tempt initially but inevitably will lead to frustration all round. You will most certainly have to live in Hong Kong to get any education allowance and you will have to educate the child in Hong Long if in Primary education. There are not enough places for young children at Primary Schools in Hong Kong. See the post about pollution and go almost anywhere else to get a flying job or you'll damage your children's health too!
Question..these "great" (a very loose term) packages we are all reading about, with no housing allowance etc, just who (or is it whom?) are these people trying to attract? I mean, ok I am old and silly, but I know there is no way I could go and work in HK (as a pilot) without housing allowance, I mean it would just be subsistence living,...so what gives??
It would seem that "what gives" is they still have 100's of people applying and asking for the job...people who don't know what they're getting into and don't know or care why everyone is telling them they are nuts.
This is the exact wording from the first page of the so called "contract".
The Conditions of Service (April 2012), which form Part 1 of this Employment Manual and your Letter of Employment, set out the detailed terms and conditions of your employment.Significant changes to Part 1, which will affect your employment rights, will only be made with your consent.
The Company Policies set out in Part 2 of the Employment Manual may be amended, added to or withdrawn by the Company at its sole discretion. Such Company Policies are for your information only. They do not confer contractual rights on you.
And for your information, Excess Flying Pay, Child Education Allowance, Medical Benefit....etc. comes under Part 2 which means....THE COMPANY MAY AMENDED, ADDED TO OR WITHDRAWN AT IT'S SOLE DISCRETION!!!! So you can guarantee when the shxt hits the floor, that will be the first thing the company comes after.
To answer your question regarding to upgrades, you can expect at least 10 years to command IF there's any expansion in KA. The average age for captains are around 45-50. The retirement age is 65. And most of the FOs joined before 2008 have their 5000hrs and waiting for command. You'd probably be better off to join HKA. Although the money is around 10% lower than KA,;however the command is much quicker, they have a huge expansion plan, going long haul and most importantly, everyone is on the same package.
KA must also be one of the few airlines that introduces significant reductions at the same time as making record profit..... Can you imagine what kind of cuts and reductions there will be when they don't make record profit...I have been here long enough to know that........
All the items in the company procedures (part 2) will be gone in a second, next will be your ID travel rights - yes, they have the right to remove them as punishment if you don't behave. Remember, this company is run by bullying, threats, fear and intimidation..
One more note....This contract was introduced to comply with some government regulations, but there is a clause in them that states that if a company cannot get qualified applicants then they can offer housing allowance, other benefits etc (B-scale) to attract persons with these qualifications.
KA needs around 30-40 of these qualified persons to increase the experience level and safety level, which is getting really really low with about 100 cadets in the system.
So if KA cannot get any experienced DEFO's then they will have to return to the B-scale.
IS it the right time to accept this job then?
Any experienced DEFO who takes this jobs will be doing the company a big favor, but it will not be returned, guarantied. KA would love to have the experienced DEFO sitting in the right seat for the next 10-15 years or until he realizes what kind of situation he has brought himself into and finds better pastures with a future.......(Hong Kong Airlines is a good alternative, they actually have expansions plans)...
If you join in the next year or two, I am confident to say, you will NEVER get a command at KA.
There is not enough direction for Dragonair, to paint a future that includes massive expansion to enable a pilot joining now, to be given an upgrade opportunity(failure rate high).
Now, please consider, the inevitable geo-political events of the region, economic vulnerabilities of China and many other likely game changing scenarios.
Would you really see a command as being likely? You won't last three years. The smart guys will run earlier!
