Fragrant HarbourA forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.
You speak of your posts as facts, what makes them any more fact than other's posts? Seems a bit pretentious to me buddy.
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So presumably you're saying that if something were to happen whilst you were away from the controls you are concerned that these inexperienced SOs would be incapable of making the correct decision and taking appropriate action?
I don't have a problem with Indian pilots. We have some now which are fine individuals. My problem is with Cathay going to recruit specifically in India BECAUSE they can't attract any other crew in the current scheme, regardless of nationality or race.
But you ignore the fact that the recruitment drive in India is brought on by the fact that no-one is accepting the current package. So, an airline like Cathay who used to have a pile of resumes from all over the world to choose from, is reduced to slithering off to a third world country with systemic, SERIOUS aviation safety problems in order to find people willing to accept this crap deal.
That was the point of my post. You decided to focus on the race itself, my problem is recruiting from an area which is known to be deficient in quality and devoid of any safety culture. I don't care if they are Indian, African, Asian, Caucasian, or Latino. We have all of these at Cathay. The problem is not having different races, the problem is focusing your recruitment in an area plagued by problems because you no longer attract the best candidate.
Do you see the difference? I'm with you on the race discrimination stuff, but I think we are talking about different things really.
You speak of your posts as facts, what makes them any more fact than other's posts? Seems a bit pretentious to me buddy.
With respect, I disagree. The only time I mentioned a fact in any of my posts on this thread is when I mentioned that everyone starts off inexperienced, something which is indisputable surely? Instead, I simply questioned others' blurring of opinion and fact.
We could all post links that highlight incidents that occurred for a variety of reasons but surely many would involve experienced aircrew?
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But you ignore the fact that the recruitment drive in India is brought on by the fact that no-one is accepting the current package.
No I don't and I agree that this is definitely a departure from the more traditional recruiting grounds. My contention from the outset though has been that we shouldn't pre-judge these potential recruits, fundamentally because they might accept a lower package than what has traditionally been on offer - the race aspect is largely immaterial. However, you can't deny that some posters have been somewhat racist in their comments.
I'm with you on the dilution of experience - something that has been a factor for a number of years. I was under the impression though that some of the latest recruits are quite experienced - 3000+ hours. Whether recruiting from an area "plagued by problems" will worsen this dilution of experience is moot as many of those who might have joined from more traditional areas would be similarly inexperienced.
For the very first time Cathay Pacific has sent a recruitment team to India for hiring second officers. The airline that is recruiting 300 pilots annually promises long-term career development path to high potential candidates. By Sudipta Dev
To keep pace with its growth plans Cathay Pacific has a target of recruiting 300 pilots annually for the next two years. A high level recruitment team was in Mumbai recently to do the first phase of screening of 77 second officers from India. It is for the very first time that the airline is doing recruitment for flight crew in India.Till recently Cathay Pacific has been majorly hiring from the traditional markets, mostly Commonwealth countries like the UK, Australia and Canada, besides of course Hong Kong nationals. In fact 43 nationalities have been working as flight crew with the airline. “In India we see a great number of very well qualified candidates. Essentiallly we chose to come at this time as as we had many applications from Indian nationals. They have been writing to us constantly though we have never advertised for the positions. We have looked at the best applications and have called them,” says Captain Paul Gunnel, deputy chief pilot (Airbus), Cathay Pacific.
The airline has three streams for the recruitment of second officers – those with with no previous experience (this is only Hong Kong ID card holders); advanced entry (having commercial pilot license and 250 hours flying time); and transition training entry ( air transport pilot license and 1500 flying hours). From India this time recruitment is being done for the advanced entry stream. The recruitment team have been interviewing six people every day and those who pass the initial screening will be contacted for the second stage of selection. The first phase involves three aspects – technical paper, reasoning test and an interview. All the positions are Hong Kong based. “We will take as many proven suitable. It is important to stress that it is not a competition, those selected must meet our standards,” says Gunnel, pointing out that following the recruitment team's return to Hong Kong they will take a call on whom to call for the second stage. “We offer a package that is competitive for the candidates we seek and we offer a full career in aviation,” he adds.
Training and development
All pilots hired by Cathay Pacific go to Australia following their selection and depending on their experience there are three different training packages. The training programme in Australia is funded by the company. “After training they will get their Hong Kong pilot license and second officer training in Hong Kong. The second phase of the training is for two months,” mentions Gunnel.
The airline is committed to career development of all its personnel and therefore wants to hire only those second officers who possess command potential. The career path from a second officer to first officer and finally a Cathay Pacific captain is what the company envisages for them at the time of recruitment. For second officers who show excellence at work it takes about three to five years to become first officers and then another five to six years to reach the position of commander and captain.
While technical skill is a key criteria for selection the recruitment experts look at other important aspects as well. “We are looking at them to be commanders so we want candidates who are motivated to be with us. They should be disciplined professionals who have a passion for aviation. They should be willing to work hard to get where they want to be,” says Gunnel.
For an airline that has a flight crew from 43 different countries one of the most significant factors is the cosmopolitan mindset of candidates. “A cockpit is a claustrophobic environment and to work in close contact with people from so many different nationalities and cultures it is essential for them to have a cosmopolitan outlook to be able to work in that environment,” states Gunnel.
For an industry that constantly goes through ups and downs, Gunnel points out that Cathay has been good at weathering the storms and promises to meet long term career aspirations of its personnel.
Please allow me to paint a slightly different picture about pilots in India .
There are close to 6000 of them unemployed .
About 80-85% learnt to fly and obtained their license outside India due to the lack of good flying schools and flying environment for general aviation Majority of them going to the US , Canada , Europe , Australia and New Zealand
As you can see they passed the very same tests you did in order to obtain their licenses .
Once they are done with their flying they come back and convert their license to an Indian DGCA one . They cannot remain in any of these countries due to residency restrictions and such issues ( although a few do )
Indian Aviation has a lot of problems and hence they all went outside to do their flying All those applicants that Cathay interviews in India probably learnt to fly outside India . They probably received thousands of applications from unemployed 250 hour CPL holders which is why they must have come here to interview candidates . However these applicants have nil idea on what the job actually is or what kind of lifestyle the salary on offer buys you in Hong Kong
I doubt any Indian pilot with experience employed with the airlines in India will apply to this positions if they find out the Terms and Conditions for this position .
As for Air India and its incidents...... Well the saying here is unless you have powerful connections inside there is no way you will be employed with them . The above mentioned Co-Pilot probably was employed due to his connections rather than flying skills.... There are numerous threads regarding AI training being below standards....( goes by the username TopTup or something like that for more info )
If you connect the dots I think you can see bigger picture regarding AI
So that leaves 2000 pilots I guess? The problem is that the structure is simply not there to catch these problems. Sure, this happens in the modern world as well, but it is a matter of scale that makes it alarming in one scenario and a fluke in the other.
I'm sorry, but why bother trying to sift through the scraps at the bottom of our profession when they could offer what is needed to make the talent come on their own free-will? That is the big white elephant in the room. I would love to hear JS bullsh1t his way around trying to explain that to people who are paying some of the highest fares in the world to travel on an airplane.
There are close to 4500 Indian DGCA ATPL holders in India . What the article mentions is that all the ATPL licenses issued so far will be checked again
However if you read the headlines it gives the feeling that all the pilot licenses issued so far and i mean each every one of them are fake
I am sure you understand how the media loves to blow things out of proportion especially when it comes to aviation .
This what happened . They get fed of trying to clear the ATPL written exams and oral exams . Yes there are oral exams for ATPL theory . If you dont pass the oral you are considered fail in the written even if you get 100% in the written exam . So what they did was they bribed some guy in front of the DGCA office to get a fake mark sheet telling they passed . Using this the DGCA issued them an ATPL . The DGCA had an a very vague syllabus until June 2011 . They were forced to publish a detailed syllabus due to the above issue
I remember reading about a Captain who had forged his ATPL Meteorology paper . He got fed up of giving it again and again and then finally found someone to make him a fake mark sheet . He converted his FAA ATP license to an Indian DGCA ATPL .
His FAA ATP license was original . His DGCA license was fake because of the forged mark sheet .
I dont agree or support him at all for what he did but... Does that make him a fake pilot ? He passed all the FAA and Indian DGCA checkrides . But that one meteorology paper screwed up his whole career of 22 years .
Like I said earlier the media loves to overhype and sensationalise when to comes to scams and aviation .
The majority of them worked very hard to come this far .
However the 1% that wanted it the easy way gave us a bad name in the world of aviation
There have been several Indian, experienced applicants to CX in the past like Capt. Parashar who was rejected and finished up as head of AHK Air Hong Kong before Cathay bought out the company. Not just Indians but highly experienced European applicants that didn't fit the British and Australian (with reservations) mould, including Americans. How times have changed!
Last edited by HotDog; 10th Mar 2012 at 12:00.
Reason: typo
Oh boy, India bashing again. I've been trying to explain this to everyone on other forums. It just doesn't seem to get into their heads for some reason. Either you don't want to share the cockpit with us or you simply think Indians (and people from the subcontinent) don't deserve to be flying with you. Nevertheless, we're still going for it.
Sqwak7700, please don't get me wrong. But I really don't think it was your birthright to earn the title of an airline pilot. I don't want to get to the 'root cause' of this animosity shown towards us by many pilots from English-speaking countries.
It is very obvious that pilots from the subcontinent have come under a barrage of criticism from the skippers/FOs (mainly the Poms/Yanks/Aussies) presently working with CX. Needless to say, there are incidents i.e. media reports associated with airlines and the regulator in India which provide substantial proof to your fancy theories. You derive some sort of pleasure when you see it coming. However, there may be many rotten eggs. But not all are.
During my training for a PPL in a flight school down under, before I got my first solo, I came across a Grade 2 flying instructor (No, he wasn't from the subcontinent) and I asked him the course of action that should be taken when the static source failed (in a C152 that had no alternate static source). He didn't know what to say and decided to conveniently walk away. Now, that's just one of them. Not all. Today, he would definitely want to get into Cathay's Second Officer programme (maybe he is in it already), and if I ever bumped into him, I wouldn't judge the guy based on that question that got him knocked out 2 years ago.
Many of you would right away put your bet on blokes from the subcontinent when it comes to poor standards in terms of flying and aeronautical knowledge. Again, you may get excited reading media reports and other incidents. But I wouldn't generalize this case study with all Indian pilots. Here's the bitter truth and as Cyril mentioned before - There are nearly 6000 commercial pilots with 200+ hours unemployed in India at the moment. I repeat, 'many' of them took it up just for the money and lifestyle overpowering their passion for flying which would directly affect their basic knowledge. I reckon two-thirds of them (including myself) were trained in UK, Australia, New Zealand, USA, South Africa and Canada. There isn't much of GA happening in India. Not too many flight schools either. Unfortunately, I assume only a third of that alarming figure of 6000 would be employed with the airlines in the next 10-15 years. And yes, there is always room for nepotism. The rest would take up other jobs/businesses and move on. But these are desperate times for Indian pilots, and I agree not every one of us would fit the bill. I'd be a moron if I said we wouldn't take any opportunity that comes our way.
Cathay Pacific came to India (owing to the huge number of applications received) this year for the first time. According to reports, 77 qualified pilots were called for the advanced entry initial interview. Now these 77 pilots have to go through the same selection process as is conducted for pilots in the UK, USA, Australia, Canada, South Africa, New Zealand. There are some who fail and some who pass. The pilots who passed must have definitely met the standards set by Cathay Pacific (whether the standards of recruitment have gone down or not is not our headache). But the road doesn't end there. We still have to pass the written test and final interview. Wait, there's still flight grading and more checks (again, whether CX is not too strict about it is not our headache).
To some of you along with Sqwak7700, with all due respect, I understand your frustration on Cathay's recruitment drive in the subcontinent and our pilots falling prey to the terms and conditions of the airline (looting taxes, poor housing allowance, low salaries) which I assume have been affecting you. Yes, I've done a bit of reading on John Warham's 49ers. If you have a serious problem with the recruitment standards, the 250+ hours criteria and the nationality of the cadet pilot, I suggest you and your fellow skippers/officers should take it up with the management. Instead, you take the easy way out by discouraging aspiring pilots from joining the airline (especially in times when there are not too many jobs in the market). We have no fallback option but to apply for the Second Officer programme with some of the airlines. As for Cathay Pacific, we may not pass the test. But we are certainly hardworking and we will try again to earn that position. But don't write us off. This is a learning curve. I'm sure you followed it too with years of training and on-the-job experience. Agreed, we have only 250 odd hours, but if it takes 4 or 5 or 6 years for the SO to JFO transition, so be it.
no intelligent person doubts that Indians can be professional, skilled pilots. Racism has no place in aviation, period.
But don't forget, many of us fly to India frequently, and what you experience there is, please forgive me, simply terrible. We are not blinded by media, this is true first hand experience.The standard of ATC, by pilots and contollers, the lack of any organisation or system, horrendous runway conditions, multiple useless stamps while you pass an army of uniformed muppets in the terminal, the awful traffic disregarding any rules or even common sense,useless hotel staff, I could go on and on. India today is clearly a dysfunctional society, with religious fatalism, out-of-control demographics, lethal pollution paired with corruption of epic dimensions.
If I would be asked for one word to describe India it would be chaos.
It is just sometimes hard to believe anything of higher standard can come out of this mess, but of course you are right that this is completely feasible. Plus I can guarantee you that any applicant, no matter from which country, will have to work very hard to have a career in Cathay. Good luck.
The standard of ATC, by pilots and contollers, the lack of any organisation or system, horrendous runway conditions, multiple useless stamps while you pass an army of uniformed muppets in the terminal, the awful traffic disregarding any rules or even common sense,useless hotel staff, I could go on and on. India today is clearly a dysfunctional society, with religious fatalism, out-of-control demographics, lethal pollution paired with corruption of epic dimensions.
You are absolutely right. Many of those pilots and controllers have gone through the poorest of training one could ever think of.
All this comes down to two main reasons - corruption and population which has gone completely out of hand. Someone tries to change the system and the system crushes you. We take pride in facts such as the 2nd largest army in the world, one of the fastest growing economies, one of the biggest consumer markets....but we all know, there's a lot more than these facts. And frightening too.
We'll leave that aside for now and focus on the thread.
Sqwak7700, please don't get me wrong. But I really don't think it was your birthright to earn the title of an airline pilot. I don't want to get to the 'root cause' of this animosity shown towards us by many pilots from English-speaking countries.
I never claimed it was my birthright, regardless of nationality. Like any profession, it is what you make of it and how you treat it. You sound legit and probably are a true professional, but my point still stands. Cathay is recruiting in one of the worst places to recruit pilots, were these problems create unforeseen problems which will manifest themselves years on down the line.
You agree with many of the sentiments of my (and others) posts with the state of Indian aviation - as well as the state of many other things in India. Like yourself, I am sure there are many professionals that are fully competent and legitimate. My point is that the money that Cathay should be spending in trying to attract the best, is being wasted in sifting through the bottom of the pile.
Your feeling that all these "200hr" pilots are in need of major airline jobs is just down-right scary. 200hr pilots in the seats are what leads to FOs that don't know which way to pull to make the houses get smaller. I don't care how motivated or sharp you are, at 200 hours you still have lots to learn that should be learned with fewer witnesses and participants than those on a 773ER.
I do take your point that if we are not happy with the direction of the airline then we should bring it up with management. That is very true and an on-going, slow process.
For decades Cathay Pacific paid good money to attract experienced, quality crew, later with a smattering of cadets which integrated well into the 'big picture', and did little to dilute the average experience level. This policy led to an enviable safety record and a highly efficient Flight Operations Department that was a credit to this private-enterprise airline, which operates in all environments on the planet and is based in a storm- and typhoon-prone part of Asia.
Now in the name of short term bonuses, certain managers are monkeying around with this policy. There are persistent rumors of friction in management regarding crew numbers and experience levels.
Applicants are being lied to about time to command and possibility of basings. They will be living in sub-standard accommodation if and when they join, flying a busy and tiring international roster. For some six years they will be 'bonded' to the company and hold a useless P2X rating.
They will also be seen by many current crew as a threat to their own conditions of service.
DON'T SAY THAT YOU WEREN'T WARNED.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 12th Mar 2012 at 04:01.
My point is that the money that Cathay should be spending in trying to attract the best, is being wasted in sifting through the bottom of the pile.
Good point. Cathay did come to India to attract only the best. We really don't care if it is the desperate money-saving tactics being played by the airline or the India-bashing campaign led by a group of pilots currently employed with CX. Consider this, out of thousands of applicants, they conducted interviews only for 77 pilots. Now there has to be something good about them. A brief reminder : not all are expected to go beyond the first stage. For the record, a few of them come with 500+ and 1000+ hours flying experience. If you doubt the credibility of those pilots throughout your flying career, I reckon there will be turbulent times ahead. I believe CX wouldn't compromise on safety and standards. That remains to be seen - Oops!
Former Australian cricketer Greg Chappell recently made a statement on the Indian culture : "The Poms (British) taught them really well to keep their head down. For if someone was deemed to be responsible, they'd get punished."
I don't want to talk too much about the colonial rule and there is no point bragging about it. The past is the past and we're working towards a better future. But for all those who aren't aware - India was the richest civilization in the world. That was until the Poms came. The rest as they say is history which is now only worth a school textbook.
This goes out to some of the chaps who despise India/Indians. You may or may not have heard a lot about our country. Let me remind you that India is a developing nation. Not under-developed, which is how you refer it to. And it isn't surprising to learn that foreigners tend to lean more towards the dirty picture. Agreed, on a priority basis, that needs to be taken care of first. It is only a matter of time. But you're not willing to see the bigger picture - the fact that India is one of the biggest manufacturing hubs in the world. Hundreds of Multi-national companies set up R&D labs in India. Why? Even some of the parts of the turbine engine (General Electric) are manufactured in India. We have a vast Information Technology and telecom industry. India is home to some of the best tourist spots in the world. Foreigners come to India looking for jobs cause they can't find any in their countries. We also have a vast pool of highly qualified engineers, lawyers, doctors contributing to our economy and more importantly, yours! The nuts and bolts of coexistence are important if we want to take this forward. Put it this way and this is the truth - you and I cannot be without each other, no matter how much you try to hate us.
Chris Pratt, John Slosar and the entire crew would know better.
P.S. - Did I just get carried away and drift the entire thread? Enough said then.
You may be interested to know that when CX recruit outside of HKG - YVR, NYC, LHR etc, there is normally an hour assigned to each candidate, 8 candidates per day, 5 days, 40 in a week. BTW, that's a tough schedule for the interviewers.
So they traipse off to India and do 77 in a week? Really? Are you SURE it's quality CX are after, not quantity?
Please, you seem intelligent. It appears to me that you're being duped by the CX PR machine already.
