Fragrant HarbourA forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.
Just got an email from the AOA... there's another survey, which is along the lines of the last one, but mainly about age 65. It's open to non members and it's only open till the 11th of August.
Please advise any non members that you know that they can receive their login information by telephoning the HKAOA office on 27360823 or email to hkaoa@hkaoa.org. A high level of response from the aircrew group will maximise the value of the survey.
From some of the questions I have seen on the survey, I am concerned that the AOA are considering giving awayour conditions so a few can work to age 65.
If your an AOA member or not, I would look at this survey, complete it and then write to the AOA expressing your concerns about the issues raised.
Exactly BusyB. Guys this is why they sent it, to find out what you think. Obviously some people are asking the question about retirement age and so the AoA has to find out what the general population thinks. It is a reasonable question to ask if you would give up some of your conditions for it, my answer was a flat no, easy!!
The retirement age in the Western World is 65. It's going to happen in CX too! Get over it. We're all facing the prospect of retirement some day. Cathay is at least looking at modernising so please stop this 'young/old' nonsense. When you get to 54, you will not want to be 'put out to grass'. We (the oldies) don't want it and neither will the younger element later. Cathay has already decided to extend Captains because they need us. Nothing more - nothing less. It's given some guys a second lease on life. Especially on the Classic. One guy just rejoined at the age of 63. Good on him. Whinge about something else 'cos the good old AOA lost this one big time. Who cares what the AOA think? Nobody - at least not us oldies and certainly not CX.
Many of the "younger" guys wouldn't mind seeing retirement increased. It is just how the company wants to go about it. There is currently a mechanism in place that provides bypass to those affected. It works, but the company does not want to pay out any longer. They want to shirk their contractual obligations.
I believe that as long as "younger" crews' potential future earnings are the same or improved, an agreement could be put in place.
Please stop making it a "young" vs. "seasoned" issue, because it is not!!
If cx want to increase the retirement age stop whining and just do it. What we're all waiting for is the 'payoff' required from the company for the 'privilege' of flying 'til we're dried up old prunes. Although it's obvious to anyone who actually flies in the left seat for cx that they're drastically short of captains we all know from past bashings that nothing is free even if 'they' are the real beneficiaries. There's plenty of left seat wide body command jobs around if you want to fly til you drop so I say if cx want the current crews to continue to 65 show me where to sign...but i aint doin' it for f/o salary and conditions!
Yes I would be happy with B scale or whatever. One common payscale would seem to be a good idea for CX too. How many different COS do we have? 7? 8? 10? Perhaps just a Pax scale and a Freighter scale.
How about one pay scale for all? As for retirement age 65? I will only consider it if my contractual bypass pay is offered or a financially equivalent pay rise is awarded. If this isn’t forthcoming from the company then I’m sorry, those senior crew who have a contractual retirement age of 55 will have to retire at 55 or extend as per the avenues available to them now.
Be careful about accepting a payrise in recompense for RA65. It is widely accepted that inflation is rising all around the world. Would a 10% payrise recompense you for an extra few years to command or simply restore some of the lost purchasing power for the last 7-8 years!
In 1999 B scales received 3 payrises, phased in over 3 years. The tradeoff was A scale paycuts. Ironically, and not surprisingly, the cost of those payrises was 1/3rd the savings from the paycuts. Further, on 'back of the fag packet' calculations I did last year, the annual savings from the remaining A scaler's pay cuts is about equivalent to the annual costs of those 99-01 B scale payrises.
A payrise in compensation for inflation, exchange rate deterioration and competitor increases has NOTHING to do with pay in recompense for extending time to command by act of a company request. We have a contract, lets stick to it until all parties are fairly dealt with. That means continuation of terms for 55 yo, not B/C/F scales, and fair and indiscriminate bypass pay for all affected junior ranks!
Jagman, your posts stink of bugger them its all about me!!! By the way, lots of people care what the AoA think because we are the ones deciding on this, like what happened to the UK onshore process, the AoA at the moment can put a stop to it. We must ensure reasonable recompense for lost time to command whilst we can, yeah, maybe one day 65 will be a legal min, but at the mo it isnt and they want it now!!!
Fenwick I'm sorry if you think my post 'stinks' of anything. Yes-I'm 55+ and I have been extended. It was offered and I accepted. Should I have gone somewhere else (after 20 years)? Why should I not look after myself and my family?
I think the main problem is that we stay on as Captains. Surely there is a point (NC?) where Commands would stop anyway if all pilots above 55 were fired tomorrow. How long would it take to train a whole bunch of C&T staff? (Not good planning by KJP!). How would we sustain an expansion? We don't have enough crews - plain and simple. Even with Oasis we still don't have enough!
Recessions are hard to take but historically we (the world) will recover. CX has a big war chest and when this 'downturn' is over we will have expanded some routes and barely retained others. Airlines which 'slash and burn' (USA carriers) are surely much worse as employers than CX.
We may come out of this smelling pretty rosey (well at least not 'stinking' of anything).
Jagman the point is, your idea of looking after your "adult" family and that of a S.O/JFO trying to make ends meet with his new family in Hong Kong dont even come close to the same thing. You fail to realise this as you are purely concerned with "maintaining" your lifestyle. This is the problem of the current system. I dont oppose you staying on at CX, good luck to you, i believe that we must have a system in place that ensures that junior pilots will not be hindered in their career progress just to save the company some money. Sure there are good reasons for RA65 and continuing expansion is one of them. At the moment the way things are being handled is just pathetic from the company and i hope the AoA will challenge this in some way. So there is bitterness in the ranks over all of this and your posts from a 55+ saying, stiff sh4! i'm ok, really doesnt help!!!!
Well said Main Dog. GTC58, we did not vote in Cos08, the company imposed it. We can only fight within our contract, unfortunately that doesnt stop the company doing what it wants when it "can", the AoA prevents the company doing it when it "wants". If the recruitment of non members can continue up to a good level then maybe we would have better success against future impositions of CoS's, until then we have to rely on the company's good will!!
My concern is that if this all goes through then what about all the guys approaching 55 on a base? They I presume will just hog their base until 65?
I joined CX with the plan that when I got my Command I would eventually go on a base. Cathay assured me this was very feasible, so yes I signed along the dotted line. With RA at 65 what are my chances of taking a base...? ZERO!
This to me and my colleagues is unacceptable and unfair. Being an ex-pat in HK struggling to raise a family with NO payrise in years, spiraling costs, increasing pollution, partial school fees paid and an absolute zero chance of a base then and I many others will just turn around to Cathay and say thanks for the Command and the training bye bye!
When you get to 54, you will not want to be 'put out to grass'.
The thing is, you knew that was the deal when you joined, or did you not see the contract for the dollar signs???
I new this to be the deal and that is how I have planned my career progression and financial future. What I don't need now is an old timer struggling to afford the fuel for his yacht / Super car / Aeroplane f@ around with my career progression.
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