TOIL

TOIL is constantly raised in different threads. I open this thread trying to centralise views on this topic. Let's update this thread with your input.

atmd_cad

My view is: just a meaningless number, +200 / -200, nobody cares, it ain't do any good to you. Well, as a second thought, if you are in the - side, management may care!

throw a dyce

As another thread states, the TOIL owed has now climbed to over 18000 hours.At current NATS AVAA rates that is about HKD 17,000,000 to buy out the hours.The CAD may as well,as they can't give the time back for the compulsory overtime.
Aren't the CAD so sweet.

rick.shaw

I'm not sure how binding your toil system is, but my old company ran a TOIL system with many promises including:

1. You would always get that time off within a year of accruing it,
2. It could be used for short notice days off for things like family sickness etc,
3. You would never lose it, and so on.

Needless to say, none of that eventuated and when people resigned, they lost the lot. This saved the company hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years. Looks like CAD may well save millions if it has a similar regard for it.

Good will? Maybe... Naive to think it will all be paid out? Definitely!

throw a dyce

Well if you think that the CAD will give you the TOIL back when you leave,then think again.The balance is 3 months out of date,so the whole subject is just forgotten about.
It's also naive to think they will give the time back.It's a con.At least if the CAD pay it out,scrap the system,then the slate is wiped clean.At the moment it's just getting worse,and the staff are still having to do compulsory overtime.Now people are complaining about fatigue.
The CAD have no regard for aviation safety,and if a serious incident happened,then it's CAD management that should be in the dock.Not the worn out controller.

meinhk

TAD, As usual you are not up to speed with goings on in H.k. The latest toil figures are NOT 3 months old, the latest figures are for end of May, less than 6 weeks old. And again you are WRONG, because if you have positive toil when you final contract finishes, they will grant you an early release e.g. if you have 78 hours, based on 7.8 hours per day , you will get outta there 10 days early . That is a fact ,if you don't believe me , pal , ring rostering ,as I'm sure you still have the number since you are such a know-all when it comes to what's happening there . And by the way, the guys there , got a 6.3% pay rise backdated till April.And they still pay only 15 % tax. I should have stayed .

Rice Whine

Good pran.

Since tower controllers get best (only?) early go maybe 4th floor should deduct 1 hour toil from upstairs for each shift worked in last 10 years . That would soon account for all upstairs TOIL.
Once upstairs TOIL is accounted for instead of early go upstairs controllers could go to 5th floor and let approach/enroute have early go instead. Just need more tower controllers with useful validation.
Approach/enroute controllers would lose 1 hour TOIL but would get to go home early for change.
Downstairs TOIL would disappear quick too

LapSap

meinhk, while that might be attractive to a has-been gweilo who has a couple of months to go on their contract, what sort of solace can a local in their late 20's take in knowing that their 350 hours (so far) will let them retire early in 25 years time?
These people are the most vulnerable ones. They are too scared to say no, and Management know it. They are the first to be called in - told, not asked ( hey, if you want your ATCO II rating you better do it!)- the odd bout of flu is not an excuse for taking a day off (Actual notice in ATCX a while back - "If you are displaying flu symptoms, wear a mask") - and they are berated for asking for more than a few days leave at a time.

As you seem quite up with things up this way, (which is questionable, as your statement , just before they went bust shows) perhaps you could get whoever is feeding you the info to tell us what the latest total TOIL figure is.

P.S. No need to call everyone "Pal".

watsup

lapsap,


Latest toil figure is on noticeboard,up to end of May.

throw a dyce

Meinhk,
Oh hello again.I'll ask a simple question.How do you know if you're in positive TOIL when the contract ends,if they are ''Only'' 6 weeks out of date? You might have had a good last month,but it's published 6 weeks after you left.
As for the rest,good news about the pay rise.Might make up for the 3? pay cuts.
My final TOIL balance was never mentioned when I left.Could have been anything,but if by the smallest of chances it was positive,then I would be quite happy for you to supply me with the phone number for rostering.I might get a small payment,with interest of course.
Here in the real world,there is no such thing as negative TOIL.If you do extra shifts it is voluntary and here £400 per day before tax.(not 15%).If you attend meetings etc,you get a days TOIL,and it is updated on the day.Not 6 weeks later.Leave is working days,not calender days.
However you obviously couldn't give a monkeys about current thinking on working hours,safety etc.Sounds par for the course.
PS,
''Pal'' is something wineos fae Glasgow say all the time when they are st faced or steamin.Sounds par for the course again.

flatfilea4

Re TOIL/WHB

May is up on the board but I can't remember a regular update of the figures each month - they may be only 6 weeks out of date now but this is not in my experience the usual state of things - November figures were on the board for months and months as opposed to only one month. We can revisit this when the June figures go up (why are they not up now) - and why are figures 6 weeks out of date a good thing? - still a bit sad really considering the army of rule-bound bureaucrats that needlessly take up space in the ATCX.

Cheers

watsup

Throw and Flathead,
The rostering girl, who b.t.w. does an excellent job,has updated ,daily record of everyone's toil figure, so easy to calculate the toil figure for end of contract. Plus,weekends and public holidays don't count .So as meinhk says, if you have 78 hours positive, this could actually equate to a min. of 12 days leave up to 16 or 17 days if the period covers public holidays. Not bad . Me thinks many expats doing the sums to work out their departure dates. Throw, do you really think far north Scotland is the ''real world '', as you call it.Don't tink so ,mister, especially in winter.AND, no Thai ''takeouts'' !!!!!!!

flatfilea4

If the WHB is calculated daily - as I fully expected it would have been - why was it not published regularly in the past?

I have no complaints with the work of 'rostering girl' (not a phrase I would use myself - sounds somewhat insulting when applied to someone who I personally know to be a helpful, intelligent, diligent colleague) - those responsible for doing the work of rostering work within a management system/framework and my comments related to the visible results of that system - when the TOIL/WHB figures go on the notice board and how often.

It is gratifying to be reassured that we will get the TOIL/WHB back at the end of a contract, (and from my experience earlier if we ask to have the balance reduced by taking days off). It would be useful if this was more widely understood as past perceptions may still persist among staff that the time will be lost.

Re: 'Don't tink so ,mister, especially in winter.AND, no Thai ''takeouts'' !!!!!!!' - traffic in North of Scotland does not decline as much as some might think because of the year round operation in support of the oil industry (complicated by the poor weather), plus droves of freezing, wet Scots heading to warmer climes for sun, sand, lager, and chips not as good as we get back home, on charter flights. On top of that the UK has a well developed, well regulated ATM industry - decades ahead of HK in all aspects that readily come to mind.

Sorry, I don't understand the 'no Thai ''takeouts'' !!!!!!!' bit at all - is this a Quiz?

To clarify my comments about bureaucrats - too many and in the wrong place - should not be in the center of the airfield with the operational staff because it needlessly adds to costs - if the ATMD/CAD had more streamlined administrative procedures then it could cut the admin budget and divert more resources to ATM.

The screen name is flatfilea4.

Cheers

throw a dyce

Watsup,
When the 10 day roster was introduced it was TOIL neutral.The CAD said it wasn't and introduced /imposed 10th day working.The TOIL is now at over 18000 hours owed to the staff.So what's your solution if the CAD are doing such a wonderful job.If the roster was properly designed,the whole TOIL empire would disappear.

I'm curious to what aspect of where I work and live is not the real world?Enlighten me oh great one.
Compared with HK the quality of life here far exceeds anything there.
If it's weather, then what is 20 inches of rain in one day called.Black pissing rain.

lepsap

i do not see any problem with this toil matter. i can use the toil in applying leave rather than using my vacation leave which is not as many as compared to the old staff who have wealthy vacation leave balance. so i would say having positive toil is not that bad. the lady mentioned in another thread she has lots of toil. she always accepts extra shifts and seldom applies leave. i think this is a very bad strategy to save toil but also save up vacation leave the same time. now, it is a chance for her to take a break.

conclusion.: toil is not a problem to someone who needs such system. not just me, i speak with other colleagues they also do not see toil is a problem to them. this is my opinion.

by the way, I am lepsap - not LapSap, i just pick a name, i tried many times on creating account names but many of them are taken.

watsup

Lepsap, Agree with you , toil is great . Now that everybody is positive,do what gweilo do and apply leave and not use vacation days. Very good pran.
Tad,just because you possibly got screw on toil, situation now much better.Lot of colleague enjoy holiday on toil. Some even have 2 week off.Long live toil and the 4th. floor, they do good job.

yat.kin.fat.choy

Now, the management offers two hours credit for those who show up to replace the sickies. GOOD management skill! The tower bastd can now have two hours early-go plus TWO HOURS extra in TOIL.

throw a dyce

watsup,
2 weeks off How many hours will that cost?

watsup

Throw,

oNLY 7.8 HOURS PER DAY AND DOES NOT INC. W'ENDS OR PUB. HOLS. a GREAT DEAL.sO YOU COULD HAVE 16 OR MORE DAYS OFF FOR 78 HOURS TOIL

LapSap

Cummon Watsup. What a ridiculous postulation to talk of taking 2 weeks off on TOIL at the drop of a hat.
Why on earth do you think many of us have hundreds of hours of TOIL already? - because they're chronically short staffed and have needed us to work extra shifts to plug holes in the roster. How the hell are they going to let someone take that sort of time off on TOIL, unless it is a sleight of hand with some dodgy accounting for those that are bouncing off their maximum carry over of vacation leave?
Tell me honestly, whats my chances of getting a week off in October when the APP course is on?

P.S. You're far too genorous with your time outside of work. 78 hours overtime worked only gets you 78 hours off?! Pffff.
Check out some of the other threads here or on ATC forum that show what most other ANSPs give - varies from about 1.7 to 3 times normal work hours depending when you do it.
CAD and the CSB may find it hard to believe but some of us do actually have a life outside of work -they don't own our lives.