Fragrant HarbourA forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.
That, I think would settle this pretty quickly. Strike. Whats the wors't that could happen. You shut down the airline an have to look for another job. I don't think management would let it go that far.
Just out of curiosity why doesn't everyone walk out. Also I didn't know CX pilots were alpa, but why not more from your ALPA MEC then besides a recruitment ban. Is ALPA setting up a strike fund or a get out of jail free card. Just kidding do not know any laws in that part of the world. What is ALPA doing to help you guys.
Sorry I'm new to the CX subject. I don't really pay attention to international For all union bashers ALPA has its goods and weakness; but if there is a ban just stay away it's not worth it. Just ask some good ol CO & EA guys who crossed the line but are truley in good standing with ALPA now. Lots of years with it over their heads and its really still in the closet. There are a lot of pilots who don't forgive and they are the majority. I personally wouldn't want to work next to someone for 14 hours and not have him/her say a word. Then again ther are guys who do not care
Thanx
sorry for the long post
Lenn / new to the board/ actually just found it. [img]null[/img]
I agree with Lennie - Why didn't you guys close it down the moment the '49ers got hit? Must be awful working with that threat over you anyway - shouldn't fly all stressed out & all - but you daren't go sick now! Best of luck
There is no legal right to strike or withdraw services in a labour dispute in Hong Kong.
Difference between walking away, what the company would see as abandoning your position, and what has already happened is that for the moment the company did not "fire" these people in strict adherence to the contract or Conditions of Service as it is referred.
If one were to go on "Strike" then the company would be allowed under Hong Kong Labour law to fire and replace the striker's as they had "abandoned" their positions.
The Union's position is that the firing of the 49 was done in a disciplinary act, one that is addressed by the CoS and steps needed to be taken before one is terminated. Therefore a violation of the C o S and grounds for reinstatement.
Smallwing, I was just asking why all CX pilots will not walk off the job. Seems to me this would solve everything. If they do not like it there, shut the place down; who cares. Fact is only a few would even consider it or it would have been done. Basically what I'm saying is it's only a few who are ticked. I do not know the labor laws of hong kong or china; if you ask me its the same place. In U.S. Aviation, if you want more money, better duty/trip rigs, retirement, good medical, cola, you have to fight for it. Let me tell you over here, a year before contract negotiations begin for any airline pilots save and stash money, prepare to walk, and if need be, see ya when the time comes. I'm sure you know how it works here. Seems to me every one at CX is afraid of the man, whom ever it might be.
Lenn, you've made a keen observation. This is not taking place in the U.S. of A, North America or Europe. Cathay's home is CHINA. The normal rules regarding employee/employer relations don't apply in Hong Kong.
If you are a businessman setting up shop, it's your kind of place. The labour laws are built for the Employer. If you are a salaried worker looking to get ahead, the rules are stacked against you.
Toto, you ain't in Kansas anymore...
That's why it's imperative that the AOA win this fight.
Sorry Lennie, but you have to be careful on what information we get here. A lot of time it is extremely false, and coming directly from HK.
Quick question, which rules from the government states that a person cannot strike? Since there are so many loopholes, I am sure there is something around it if one is to look for it.
I use to live in the US so I am very familiar with the picket line. But what do you think of Comair pilots asking for same amount of pay as a big jet pilot? No disrespect to Comair guys, but it is a big difference.
Whether you like it or not....There is NO LEGAL RIGHT TO STRIKE IN HONG KONG. No ways around it, no clever loopholes. You need you employers permission to strike. Sound crazy?
You will also be held responsible for your employers losses during the strike. There is also no protection in the form of unfair dismissal laws. They would sack the lot of them and hire a bunch of shonks to replace them.
They are doing the best they can under extremely hostile conditions.
Still haven't responded to the question. Why have the CX pilots not walked off the job regardless of a strike. They fired, from what I've READ, 49 pilots. Why are CX pilots continuing to work. IFALPA has put a ban on recruiting. Thats fine, but why are guy's still flying airplanes, and upgrading, ect. This could be over now, strike or no strike, legal or illegal. CX can not replace (rough estimate) 3000 pilots overnight. Just walk off. To those 49 or so fired pilots, the guys who continue fly, and upgrade ect. ect., are stabbing those fired in the back. Truely the one's who continue to fly are making it easier for CX management, Hong Kong, and the Chinese Goverment. I know I'm from the U.S. but Charlie doesn't have a leg to stand on. They are weak.
The question HAD been answered. It is totally illegal to strike in HK. You walk off the job as a group, does that guarantee you all get the job back?? NO
Hong Kong is a very expensive place to live, have kids, have life. You are saying to tell 1450 pilots to walk away from what feeds their family, risking their lives and jobs on the assumption that unity will pull through.
I think a point that hasn't been spelled-out by previous posts is that it is even illegal in Hong Kong to stage a walk-out...!!
The pilot's could resign, but would be compelled by law to give either, a) 3 months notice (not a good technique in an industrial campaign) or, b) pay Cathay 3 months pay in lieu of notice (not a good technique at any time).
So you should understand that due to the unique and draconian employment & industrial relations laws in Hong Kong, they have VERY, VERY limited options.
The current campaign is understated (as it has to be to avoid breaking the laws) whilst putting sufficient pressure on CX to induce the Company to realise that negotiation is the only way forward.
It's a subtle game plan, and must seem inexplicable to people who live in first world countries with sophisticated employment laws.
I do not, and never have worked for Cathay Pacific, but I do live and work in Hong Kong. My advice to you is to trust your colleauges here, for they know what they are doing.
I believe you guys when you say it is illegal to strike or even stage a walk-out. In my world that means I`m left with basically no rights whatsoever. And if I want to keep on working for such an outfit in a country where this is the case, I just have to forget everything that has to do with self-respect.
I`m the first one to admit that it is important to maintain an income for the sake of your family`s welfare. But at the end of the day, when your bank account is balanced and your kids fed, are you really happy and content knowing that you cannot use the rights your friends in other parts of the world take for granted. The right to put down your foot when you and your colleagues feel that unjustice is coming your way. I think not.
Furthermore; as far as I understand, at the same time as 49 colleagues were sacked in HK and IFALPA put a band on CX, pilots are lining up to take the vacant positions. I know this is a stupid question, but what happend to being a colleague? I know, twenty odd years in this business, on both sides of the table, should have told me not to ask such a question.
1) nobody outside cx and applying there gives a toss about the ban...
2) cx pilots are quite happy to accept commands at the expense of their sacked buddies, while expecting applicants to forfeit their opportunity at cx = hypocrites
3) the situation is a hopeless mess, and nobody in their right mind would go accept a job there and jump knee deep into it..
Hey Hials, would they send you to jail if everyone would sick out in Fong Kong. Just kidding about Fong.
I understand what CX guys are really going through. I do not like it. I understand, but CX pilot's need to light the fire under their ass, CX Management only talks; yada yada. No pilot, no fly; thats the fact.
For all CX wannabe's, stay away from the POWDER KEG, till its over, or you will have truely a long road. Longer than you thought. Word does travel quick in aviation. REALLY QUICK. small world eh.
The rot seems to have set in steadily with the acceptance of multiple pay contracts for doing the same job, then the hiring of outside crews to operate the freighters, etc, etc. Just a process of erosion which most of us, and the CX pilots are probably no different, just allow to happen until the load becomes unbearable.
As another expat pilot, I'm afraid that the only answer is either "Put up or Shut up", because you are seen by the employer as a whore who can be screwed until you decide to walk.
I think if all CX pilots walked, that would give everyone in the world the opportunity at working for a good airline.
What people don't realise is that CX is owned by the Swire Group. Just prior to the CX pilots getting greedy and wanting even better working conditions and pay, the Swire Group had a change of some senior management. The last thing they are going to do is be seen as soft from the start, so they put their foot down.
It was bad timing on the CX pilots side. Chinese and Western world management styles of any executive would have done the same.
Personal opinion. Cx pilots wont strike. Constitutionally incapable of defending themselves. Funked it at B scales, funked it at COS, funked it at the AHK take over, funked it by destroying the defenceless at ASL, etc ad nauseum. Now they are reaping it and will go on reaping it. As for Findlay and Tyler, saw them on CNN, opinion again, never saw anything like it, grown men in broad daylight seriously threatening to belt each other over the head with bits of wet brown paper... As I see it, disgraceful, the whole thing, and thouroughly consistant with everything from this outfit, both sides, in the past.
why don't all CX pilots just walk off the job
