Fragrant Harbour WannabesA forum for those applying to Cathay Pacific, Dragonair or any other Hong Kong based airline or operator. Use this area for both Direct Entry Pilot and Cadet-scheme queries
There's some good points being raised on this thread. Here's my two cents for whatever its worth.. (probably not much!)
Each to their own I say. The cadet program is not for everyone. Everyone's situation is different and everyone has their own goals and ambitions.
For me personally, I don't have the money to pay for a fixed wing CPL, instrument rating and all the rest. If I can get CP to pay for it and then gaurantee me a job at the end then its worth it. It also means bypassing flying GA stuff and gets you straight to the airlines. Awesome.
I dont have any debts, have no children and my partner is also working so spending a few years in Hong Kong earning a minimal wage is not much of a drama. I'm also from Adelaide originally so I'll have plenty of family support while I complete the initial training if required. I love flying and if I get a cadetship then CP will have a highly motivated and dedicated trainee on their hands.
However, if I was married with 3 kids and a dog, had a mortgage and my partner was unemployed then the cadet program would be unsuitable for me. Simple.
I guess everyone needs to do a little soul searching and consider their own financial/family obligations before applying for this program. If the conditions on offer are unsuitable for your personal situation then don't apply..
Correct me if I am wrong, but I have seen decent apartments for rent in Disco Bay from around HKD 7,000 a month for 1 bed, or 10,000 a month for 2 bed. Say 2 graduated cadets share a place in DB, HKD 5,000 a month each (inclusive of utilities) seems very reasonable on a salary of over 300,000 HKD (source PPJN/Savills Hong Kong).
As for other living costs I found HK cheaper than London on my last visit, but as a mere tourist I could be missing something there.
Having said that I can see how those with dependents would struggle to make ends meet, but if you are young and single and don't mind living in HK for a few years (after all, it's hardly a punishment posting) then this would surely be far more prudent then splashing out £100k+ on a course with no guarantee of a job at the end. I believe that is the point Triplespool is ramming home, if you want to go into flying then this is by far the most attractive option at present. I would challenge anyone to find a better alternative financially.
To the other posters, I do appreciate your extensive knowledge and input, and I'm sure there are some who will decide that without the housing allowance they cannot afford to go down this route. For myself, I believe it to be a sacrifice worth making. Again, that is based on my personal circumstances. Furthermore you can leave CX after 6 years with a 777/747/A330/A340 TR with an ICAO ATPL (please correct me if that is wrong) and move onto more lucrative work.
....however if you do choose to live in Mid-Levels and go boozing in Wanchai every night I'm sure the money wouldn't suffice!
But no one has the right to come here telling cadets that they "will be ripped off" when it is obviously so untrue beyond belief.
How about people that work for CX who all know the cadets are getting ripped off!
Yes it's a fantastic opportunity that not many get, however this doesn't mean CX can abuse those lucky few.
How about CX will pay for your flying training but you pay the money back plus a bit extra if need be for the company once you start earning money with the company? This would take approximately 3 years with no housing as an S/O and is the way many cadet programs run.
You seem happy for CX to take this advantage for the next possible 40yrs of employment with CX. Management will love you!
How would you feel after 20yrs in CX sitting on the flight deck as Capt and the direct entry 3rd yr S/O gets paid more than you do? Actually you are the lowest paid pilot on the flight deck, and will always be unless flying with another CEP! One day as a training Capt you also will train guy/girls who get paid more than you. That makes perfect sense
Basically just be informed that the international cadet program while a fantastic beginning may lead to unforeseen issues in the future.
Some of you may end up leaving CX for better pay/lifestyle for you and your family or remain and continue the fight for better conditions.
However, if I was married with 3 kids and a dog, had a mortgage and my partner was unemployed then the cadet program would be unsuitable for me. Simple.
What scheme in the world, what job in the world, and where in the world would you ever be able to provide for the above personal situation on Day 1 of a totally new job? Especially after the company paid for your training, food, and accomodation for over a year?
As for other living costs I found HK cheaper than London on my last visit, but as a mere tourist I could be missing something there.
while expensive, the cost of living in HKG doesn't really compare with Europe. just be wary though, it is constantly on the rise as we speak. in a previous post i mentioned that it is possible to live in HKG on a CEP basic salary. that is given you are willing to/know how to assimilate in with the HKG local way of life, which is significantly cheaper than if you go to LKF and wanchai for your dinner and nightlife.
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Furthermore you can leave CX after 6 years with a 777/747/A330/A340 TR with an ICAO ATPL (please correct me if that is wrong) and move onto more lucrative work.
i have heard of ex-cadets leaving CX after less than 6 years, my understanding is there is no bond in the CX cadet contract due to its illegality in HKG. not sure about getting a full ATPL though, given you start off with 0 hours in Adelaide and then you do ~4 years of S/O (P2X) time which does not count for much, so you might not get 1500 hours to unfreeze your ATPL within 6 years. i stand to be corrected though.
so the question really is how CX will entice these international cadets to stay with the company on the long-term... as for wannabes, caveat emptor! do your research, and if you know what to expect and are prepared to make sacrifices, then why not give it a go?
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What scheme in the world, what job in the world, and where in the world would you ever be able to provide for the above personal situation on Day 1 of a totally new job? Especially after the company paid for your training, food, and accomodation for over a year?
this is a tough situation in most circumstances, but encountering this in a foreign land would only exacerbate the problem.
Last edited by holdmetight : 27th October 2009 at 13:02.
the answer to the question ''is CX CPP a good program??'' all depends on what is your personal situation and what are your goals. I passed all CX interviews, exams, went to do flight grading in Adelaide, and for personnal reasons I decided not to get into this program and left in the middle of flight grading. It was a pure personnal decision. I was supposed to be in CP35. Don't compare yourself to others, just think about YOUR situation and make the decision by yourself. There shouldn't be any debate about this program. It's either you feel like it's a good opportunity, and work hard to get in and commit to it, or you feel like it's not the right thing for you, and you don't apply. But there is no point in arguing about it. Take it or leave it. Do what is the best for yourself.
Exactly what I have been asking from the begining. The CPP is purely down to your own personal choice and it appears that the OP was just satisfying his/her own personal agenda - an agenda I have acknowledged by saying that its the likes of us starry-eyed wannabes who are lowering the T&Cs of our more senior members.
However the OPs 'speech' should have been placed in the Terms and Endearment forum where an abundance of like minded posts have been presented ad nauseum - especially regarding easyJet.
If you read the original post word for word, there is absolutely no constructive advice given (if imparting advice was the intention somehow). If you are single with no worries, then the CPP is brilliant in this current climate. If, as put, one has a partner, three kids and a dog, then you certainly will not live on 33 thousand Hong Kong dollars a month.
Do potential candidates with the intelligence and apptitude for professional flight traning and a 4 stage cadet application procedure really need to be told this?
If you read the original post word for word, there is absolutely no constructive advice given (if imparting advice was the intention somehow).
Sometimes and most of the time...advices are given by facts just like what <SMOC> n some others have said (but i guess mine was more critic). If you received and replied it in a way like the others did (but then i guess that isn't u)...then i dont think there wouldve been so many posters replying on ur personal attacks. Hence, i think in the near future, if u are that unfortunate person...Do u think u could take the fact that u cannot achieve ur flying dream? Or are u just going to put ur parents or family into more debts? because like u said.
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Flying is a dream. No one does it for the money.
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Because flying is a dream and not a job, the rewards are merely a bonus
Last edited by EPASZ : 27th October 2009 at 15:46.
As I have said in many replies, my amazement has been at why you started this thread and I have mentioned on numerous occasions about a personal agenda. PPRuNe welcomes musings but does not look too kindly on "blogs". And that is what your original post was - a blog. A "Dear Auntie" letter to the editor.
I took the liberty of looking through your posts and it seems you have not changed the record since circa June 2009:
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Now that the Cadet program are open to all nationalities instead of HKIDers, might as well tell the world Cathay is hiring expats on half price (on local terms)
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you think that's a good thing for the expats who has spent years of accumulating hours to try to get a job in CX
Like I said. Personal agenda.
I also looked at the threads yourself, Smoc, Holdmetight, Sqwak7700 posted on and I think it makes things completely clear and proves my point in my earlier post:
Smoc 19 June 2009
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If the AOA doesn't negotiate a decent package for these guys, CX will have a new low to aim for!
and the killer point:
Sqwak7700 19 June 2009
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This will allow them to hire masses more pilots and get rid of the really expensive ones... you and me
I rest my case.
Like I said, I appreciate that schemes like this and starry-eyed wannabees like me and others are causing Sqwak7700 to write things like the above. But that does not give you the right to start a thread spreading what can only be discribed as poison. Is this a monthly blog you will write. Can we expect another thread in December on the same subject...again? Don't you find it boring?
I got the answer i want from all ur killer replies. And i gotta re-write my topic to something more like..."INTERNATIONAL CADETSHIP...WHO IS IT FOR?"
And that ripping off thing that u attacked in all ur replies...I will make sure I check ur post every month from now on to see how u are progressing. Because it seems more interesting that way. But hopefully i wont have to Quote out ur replies in the future.
Thanks for resting the case.
Last edited by EPASZ : 27th October 2009 at 17:05.
I'd like to call a truce though lets leave it there.
I guess for a single guy like me, I never really thought how difficult it would be for a family guy/gal if they did apply for the CPP. I'd imagine it would be close to impossible to live on a SO salary if you are used to the US/Aussie/UK lifestyle and expect to live like ex-pats do in Hong Kong.
However, wouldn't the 90% allowance for schooling be a very big incentive? Correct me if I'm wrong but is the only difference between a CPP cadet and a DESO the fact that the CPP cadet does not receive the housing allowance?
I read somewhere someone saying that they still get education for kids, medical insurance, free (discounted) flights for parents and spouses etc just not the Housing.
i believe the LEP/CEP package does not entail schooling for children either. as far as i know, the package for ex-cadets is just the basic salary. you are then given a small amount of housing allowance when you make Captain. check out this thread:
However, wouldn't the 90% allowance for schooling be a very big incentive? Correct me if I'm wrong but is the only difference between a CPP cadet and a DESO the fact that the CPP cadet does not receive the housing allowance?
I just went out with 1 of my mates from CX last night...and he was quoting 60K/month (HKD) for expat housing....no education allowance i think for locals...plus i think most locals has now join the union to flight for better conditions...something that theyve never done.
But lucky for him...he has already made FO (after 4.5 years)(making alright money when his is kinda single)...But the bad news is, now that more senior captains can retire at 65 instead of 55...it is going to take him an extra 4-5 years on top of the original 10 years average to be considered for Captainship.
SO upgrades times are looking grey it seems...
Im not an expert in HK base airliness because i dont work in that region...perhaps someone else has more info.
Just as a point the education allowance for cadets has changed recently. Cadets were never entitled to this but now get it if they have children once they achieve FO year 1. Currently this is about six years after starting. So if you have kids of school age this cost needs to be added to my list of expenses.
It is very interesting that this was only offered the day 90 cep joined the HKAOA.
What scheme in the world, what job in the world, and where in the world would you ever be able to provide for the above personal situation on Day 1 of a totally new job? Especially after the company paid for your training, food, and accomodation for over a year?
RNZAF, RAAF, RAF, USAF infact any other 'AF' in the World. As an added bonus you get to do the best flying possible before heading to CX for 30 years of staring at a PFD in the middle of the night.
What scheme in the world, what job in the world, and where in the world would you ever be able to provide for the above personal situation on Day 1 of a totally new job? Especially after the company paid for your training, food, and accomodation for over a year?
Briefly offtopic...and following on from what Darbz stated
But I would like to ask the airline pilots out there without Airforce experience, would you recommend the Airforce before joining a commercial airline?
Or do you think the direction you took was the best way?
Finally, would you rather take a CPP entry or Airforce entry?
Personally I feel that I run the risk of entering the airforce and having to watch other guys fly better aircraft if i don't make the cut *touch wood*
Quote from "Speed and Angels".
"A. I'm stuck in the navy doing some boring job for 10 years
B. I have to spend the next 10 years watching other guys land on carriers..its just unbearable"
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