teropa

Hi all,

First, I'd like to apologize if I'm in the wrong forum. I know that some might get annoyed at posts like this, but I gather it's both an interesting speculation and informative for people who have been pondering over the subject. Again, I'm sorry if this strikes as stupid or bandwidth-consuming to those who arrow the skies for living...

Anyways, every now and then there's a discussion over at the flightsimming communitie's biggest sites (Flightsim.com, Avsim.com) about a situation, in which both pilots would become incapacitated and a non-pilot pax (A flightsimmer!) would have to land the plane. One such is currently going on at avsim.com.

I'm going to copy my post from avsim here as my "version" of things that I would do, if I ever encountered such a situation.
I'm a person you would call a "PC-pilot" or "armchair pilot", but a very serious one, aspiring to be a real world airline pilot one day.

I'd like to hear comments about the scenario from everyone, esp. pilots.

-- snip snip --
Hi,
Very interesting...

I have no PPL or above, but have flown Cessnas and Pipers from the right seat quite lot, with no problems.

I had a go in a full-motion, level D MD-11 simulator 6 months ago.

Did a few approaches and takeoffs and landed without a problem.
I admit that it was quite different from what I expected but IMO it wasn't anything so special you all keep talking about. Airplanes are airplanes, regardless of how big they are. The basic functions and laws apply to airliners as well as C172s.

I think that given the right plane (say 767) and some time to analyze the situation, I would have no problem bringing the beast down.

Tell me if I'm missing something, but here's an example, and I'll use the 767 as I'm a PIC767 fanatic :

Both pilots out, plane flying on AP.

- Left seat, check that AP is on and check also what it's doing from the FMC, MCP etc.

- OK, we're on LNAV and VNAV modes cruising along the route seen in FMC, FL380

- contact ATC and declare an emergency (squawk 7700)

- I would be given instructions to change to another frequency and would soon be given instructions by a real 767 pilot.

- 50% chance is that I would be given instructions to reprogram new waypoints to FMC, once the real pilot knew that I was familiar with it.
But I still wouldn't do it "alone" as the pilot would still get me through every step of the reprogramming to minimize all errors.

- 50% chance is that I would be only given instructions to use MCP hdg sel, ALT (V/S) and speed modes, since it's more simple that way.
I really don't know which would it be, FMC or direct MCP modes, but in autopilot definately. _All the way_.

- I would be directed into a CAT III airfield/rwy and be setup for an autoland. Ideally I would only have to use:

* FMC (if not for programming, then at least checks for fuel, app
speeds etc)
* gear lever
* flaps lever
* autobrake switch
* speedbrake lever
* MCP as a whole + Nav1 freq/crs selectors
* Transponder (to code 7700 I believe)

In short:

1. check that plane stable on AP (A/T on, F/D on, _some_ lateral and vertical modes on), and contact ATC and get instructions from ATC and a pilot and do the following with their help:

2. check fuel and position from FMC (also check warning lights on panel)
3. squawk 7700
4. hdg sel in MCP (what I'm told)
5. ALT and V/S in MCP (what I'm told)
6. speed in MCP (again, what I'm told)
7. lower flaps at appropriate speeds
8. tune given CAT III ILS rwy data in Nav1 (freq/crs)
9. select ILS display
10. capture loc, gs / activate APP-mode
11. lower gear at appropriate phase
12. arm autobrake (max) and speedbrake
13. activate L,C,R autopilots above 1500 AGL
14. check final approach speed from FMC, dial it (+additives)
15a enjoy the ride down and check the "become a hero" in after landing checks
15b try to use reverser thrust (might be a little tricky mechanically tho, but odds are that the rwy is so long that brakes are enough to do the trick)

ALL THE TIME MONITOR AIRSPEED AND ALTITUDE


The list above seems premeditated (!) and something that would be very difficult to remember etc., but I just quickly wrote it off the bottom of by head, and really don't think that it would be more difficult than that.

With a plane other than 767 (or other than a Boeing), it would be (for me at least) a different story.

Comments?

cheers,
Tero

-- Cut Cut --

There you have it, comments?

Tero

PAXboy

Whether or not an outsider could do this - you must first ask yourself: How many times has it happened in the past?

Take the last 25 years.
Consider how many commercial flights (twins and above) that there were on average at the beginning, middle and end of that period.
Now do some basic multiplication.

Now find out how many times one pilot has been incapacitated.
Now how many times have TWO been prevented from operating?

Off the top of my head, I would say: To the first - less than .01% and of the latter? Zero.

On the actual flying ... having sat in the jump seat on a number of occasions, I think that the things that will catch you out are the wind - those sudden eddies and changes and that it all happens VERY FAST indeed.

Now the professionals can give their opinion!

skyvan

An interesting idea, can an armchair pilot land an airliner? There should be no problem.
As long as the new pilot has the calmness to remain in control of his emotions, and the situation, there should not be a problem with him/her controlling a modern airliner to an uneventful landing.
The trick is for him (I'll risk being non-PC by refering to the hero as a male!!) to communicate the predicament, and to keep the AP in. If he can do that, and be talked down, there would be a chance of success.
Having said the above, please remember that I said " a modern Airliner" There are many aircraft being flown about that do not have Autoland capability. If that is the case, then all bets are off. The ability to handfly a B737/DC-9 or bigger aircraft is not something that can be taught on a PC simulator.
From another angle, if I was to talk a non-airline pilot down, I'd rather take a private pilot over a PC pilot, and if the AC is modern, with full automation, I'd rather have a complete novice there, who will not question or second guess me, because his MS FS2000 doesnot have feature "x" that my company's AC has fitted! Sometimes a little knowledge can be dangerous.
Remember, if something like that were to happen while you are on-board, there is a chain of command, and PC pilots are not mentioned anywhere in that. Your most likely involvement would be to operate a radio while an off-duty pilot jumps in to drive, or a cabin attendant makes the MCP selections.
Still, there is nothing wrong with thinking through a possible scenario, it may come in handy one day (or the storyline of a novel) Just remember, if it does happen to you, manage the risk by keeping the AP engaged as long as possible. It will free up your brain power to concentrate on what you are being told/asked by the outside people.
If you get the urge to hand fly, just remember that even experienced airliner pilots normally do 40-90 hours in a full-flight simulator before they fly a new aircraft for the first time. You can only enjoy being a hero if you (and all those behind you) survive.

teropa

aisleman,

I'm really sorry, if even after apologizing that post would create such fierce flaming. I truly do not see why that should happen. Are professional pilots a breed that cannot control their emotions and immediately feel threatened if someone suggests he/she could do something without the license that the pilots can? I know that this isn't the case with the majority... Besides, this isn't even the point of the post...


PAXboy,

I appreciate the POV you're bringing to this, but as it is, it's not the issue here whether or not it would happen, rather than could it be done if such was to take place.

skyvan,

Thanks for the informative opinion. Your reply was something that I hoped for . A "civil" sold reply... lol

Actually, I was also kind of hoping for someone who drives the 767 for living to see if the above sequence would enable the fictional people from the fairly-tale land walk away from the jet...
As I'm just a PC-pilot with ~ 20 landings and a few hundred hours in a real Cessna, it would interest me to see if I was very far from what I _should_ do...

I appreciate the replies, keep em coming!

Tero

teropa

aisleman,

_You_ didn't upset me at all !

You just reminded me of something (the attitude of some people) that upsets me, when I get in to too close contact with it ...

regards,
Tero

greatorex

A really good question!

In the good old days of flight deck visits, I never ceased to be amazed by the knowlege of young kids about just about everything to do with flying a plane - knowledge that had been gleaned almost entirely from MS Flight simulator!

I've often thought that it would be interesting to put these kids into a real flight sim - I wouldn't be at all surprised if they didn't do a better job of it than us!

Agaricus bisporus

Teropa, no reason at all why a like minded "amateur" should not do the job in extremis, particularly with the help of the automatics and a skilled operator (pilot) on the other end of the radio.

Consider the number of times complete non aviators have been talked down in hand flown light a/c following the incapacitation of their instructor/pilot. The Brian Lecomber incident in the Isle of Wight , and the subsequent (successful) rerun by a non flying journalist springs to mind.

As a keen flight-sim flyer you should be well placed to handle this scenario, even in a big complex transport a/c.

But remember, we commercial pilot are not paid to pull off uneventful take offs and landings, we are paid (generally guite well) to cope with the emergency situation that without our seldom used expertise would certainly kill all on board. Fortunately most of us never need to earn that money, but sometimes, just occasionally, someone does. And that makes it all worthwhile.

So, of course you can hack it when all is working (my mum once flew an acceptable circuit in a Chinook in the sim, and she knows as as much about flying as I know about Japanese), the trick is to keep it all together whan things go wrong.

On a more serious note I'm concerned at teropa's reference to a post by aisleman that does not exist. Sadly this appears to be yet another example of the over zealous use of the veto by the "moderators" on this bulletin board who seem all too willing to excise entire posts without acknowledgement or explanation. The continued use of such Orwellian levels of control does not bode well for the right of free speech here. I know it is "their train set" but the unfettered power of individuals over the voices of the majority usually ends in mess and tears.

Beware...

curmudgeon

Agaricus

In defence of the moderators (and I've never knowingly met one) I think that their policy is to delete the offending part of the post and if necessary add a warning to the poster that if such comments continue they will be banned or similar.

This seems to be an old topic on which I can recall a few firmly held opinions before.

It is more likely I suspect that aisleman deleted his own posts, which is quite easy to do.

cur

Brizzo

Some while ago I had a good session in a 737 sim at Cranebank, and in the pub debrief we agreed that no, I would not have landed successfully, but that I might have managed a slower crash than some people.

Jetdriver

Agaricus.

I really do not know why I am rising to the bait, however your reference to "Orwellian levels of control" is somewhat premature.

The author had the ability to remove their own post, and presumably did !

The only editing you will find from me is when the language is inappropriate or the site rules have been breached to an unacceptable level.

A post is only deleted if the content is so unacceptable that editorial "repair" is not possible. That is is very rare indeed.

I am on holiday and moderating this in my spare time. It will take about five minutes for the jacuzzi to reach the right temperature so you have it.

If you want "free speech" by your own definition then set up your own site. As for ending in "mess and tears", I don't think so .
Anyway the temperature is just right so I am off to soak and relax. Suggest you do likewise.

Agaricus bisporus

Jetdriver et al, yes, you are right, I clean forgot about self deleted posts - silly me.

I seem to have come across rather a lot of censorship on Prune recently and jumped to an umwarranted conclusion. Sorry!

Eff Oh

Well guys, I'm sorry, but I don't agree! I fly the B757-200 and B757-300. (Not B767, but close enough.) I do not think that a non, pilot would be able to successfully land a B767. You refere to the "Speed from the FMC" Well that speed only is correct for the weight you are at. You must work out the landing weight and input it to the FMC before it will give you the speed. Do you know how to do this?? Also you mention lowering the gear and flaps at "an appropriate stage", when would that be?? If you didn't you could stall the aircraft, and big aeroplanes don't recover too well from that! Could you recognise if the aircraft was high or low on the profile?? You do not need to arm all 3 autopilots above 1500ft for an autoland. It does this automatically at 1500ft. You would not know the systems well enough to complete this task. Also you seem to have forgotten the fact that at some stage it will dawn on you that you have 230odd peoples lives in YOUR HANDS and a $70million jet under your control. Could you hack it??
Next a suggestion that anyone can do it will be made. "Who needs training, I have FS2002!!!"
I like flight sim 2000/2002 and they are very realistic. But they are NO MATCH for the real thing!! So in short, no, you couldn't land it!
Eff Oh.

gofer

If imagination really is more important than knowledge, why contradict yourself with so much text.

Sorry couldn't resist

I'm not even good with Flightsim, but if there was nobody else with what seemed like more experience - would I try? Would anybody for that matter ? And could they get it righter than the other alternative !!! If you don't try you'll never know, but given that the alternative otherwise becomes a certainty ......

Those are the real background questions. And the answers lie in the way people panic, or don't until afterwards, if there is an afterwards. Having 270 lives behind me of having 2000 when driving a train, or the 50'000 that we have in every batch in the chemical factory with our computer computer controlled and driven production - that I feel, for many only spurs them on to do better.

PAX have a blind faith that the crew want to go home at the end of the day - otherwise we would never get into something, that we all know logically is to heavy to go anywhere upwards. Every flight is a double miracle - first the take off and then the landing.

Eff Oh

That quote, "Imagination is more important than knowledge", was made by Albert Einstien, not me. Wish I could claim it, coz it's a good one!!

teropa

Eff Oh,

I will try to fill in the blanks here. I think you don't give me enough credit here...

Now, correct me if I'm wrong:

Before the pilots left their origin (i.e. preparing the FMC prior to taxi out) they typed into FMC the ZFW for the flight in question. This data is a constant for the flight in question (if the pax and cargo didn't jump out the window lol). The 767 has sensors that "sniff" the amount of fuel in the tanks. Also, if one disagrees with the calculated fuel (found in PERF INIT), one can manually enter the assumed right value.
Now, with this information, the FMC is able to make up the Gross Weight, which simply equals the ZFW + fuel. This weight changes as the flight progresses as the CALC fuel diminshes ... At least in the Honeywell FMC that I'm very familiar with, the Approach page does contain the Approach speeds that are calculated from those very figures. So, to answer your question: I wouldn't have to calculate anything. Please tell me what's amiss here ...


Secondly, if I faced the situation that I had no speed information available through the FMC, I would check what our current calculated GW is and estimate an app speed probably a little above the "right one". Would you say that for a 767 with, say, 20klbs of fuel left with a ZFW of ~ 250 klbs a Flap 30 speed of 135-140 would be so far OFF that it would actually CRASH the plane upon touchdown. I would think that some kind of rough estimation would be enough, IF in the rare case there was something wrong and an app-speed couldn't be read from the CDU. I'd like to add that I would always go for a bit higher estimation for the APP speed, and if it would regardless of that end up too slow, the situation wouldn't go unnoticed as the plane would start to pitch over 5 degrees ANU early in the approach. I'm not blind you know...

Secondly, what is there to explain about the flaps? The 767 (and 757) even has Vfe speeds for every setting beside the flap indicator gauge. Also, in the Pegasus-type EADI the red flap- speed zones are clearly visible in the speed tape.

Well, I'll write some detailed information to be more specific.

I'd make sure that I was ~ 5000ft 20-30 miles out, just to be on the safe side. Then I would gradually slow down and would lower the flaps on schedule. The schedule is this, and I would slow down to below Vfe speed before lowering the corr. setting:

flaps 1, 250 IAS
flaps 5, 230 IAS
flaps 15, 210 IAS
flaps 20, 210 IAS
flaps 25, 180 IAS
flaps 30, 170 IAS

I would lower the gear once the G/S came alive, and I assume that I would do this (to be on the safe side) already 10 miles out.
As for the max speed for gear extension in the 763, it's 270 IAS (primary system, same speed for retraction) and if I had to resort to alternative system, it's 250 IAS. So I _really_ don't think I would mess that up.

As for the profile; are you referring to VNAV or ILS profile? Probably to the G/S as I wouldn't be using VNAV for descent. Too much error possibilities, I would just do it with V/S mode and SPD mode in MCP. And YES, I know how to read the ILS indicators in EADI and EHSI . After reading my first post, do you really have to ask??

As far as I know, standard B767/757 (excluding the B764) AFDS does NOT activate all channels above 1500 AGL automatically. The 777 and next gen 767-400 AFDS does this, but for the rest of the clan, I would have to press the other two APs on to get LAND3. Of course, if one channel was "busted" I could also land it with LAND2 which is similar to LAND3, only difference being less redundancy. I'm not arguing with you on your company's 757 AFDS. If it has the automatic activation of all three channels above 1500 AGL, so be it. I didn't know that the older gen 757/767 had this feature.

To comment on the "would I have the balls to do it". I can only say that yes I would. I think I would do ANYTHING to get me and others safely on the ground. Airline pilots are not gods. I agree that you have a big responsibility, a REALLY big responsibility over the PAX, yourself and the aircraft itself. But you are still humans. So are we wannabees and also the rest of us humans.

I have been in engine failure situations three times in a single engine aircraft with my dad (once at night in the middle of nowhere). Each time we held the act together and managed to get the crippled bird back to terra firma in one solid piece. In short, I would TRY to do my best, and if I failed... that would be too bad. As simple as that. I'd like to add that I'm not a stupid teenager with too much time in my hands. I'm 23 and one year to go till I get my M.Sc in electronics. Just so you don't think that I'm an 8-year-old flying with my dad in cessnas once a year and reading too much pilot-magazines lol...

Feel free to bombard me some more, I'm delighted that someone took this perspective to this ).

cheers,
Tero

Pilot Pete

Good systems knowledge never landed an aircraft successfully.......


NO to answer your question, and this has all been done before if you try a search.

PP

teropa

Pilot Pete,

Could you PLEASE tell me: how is it different, if SOMEONE who knows the systems and how to operate them, pushes the buttons and turns the wheels and switches to accomplish an AUTOLAND to nearest airport, FROM one who has ATPL and turns the same switches and buttons in almost the same sequence.

I don't get it. Please be more specific. HOW is it different ???? Does the aircraft mystically "see" that the person pushing the buttons in the front does NOT have ATPL in the back pocket. Does the aircraft mystically do everything wrong and start malfunctioning in every possible phase and system, IF there is someone doing the magic, with MERE systems knowledge in back of his/her head ?

cheers,
Tero

Pat Pong

teropa - it strikes me that every time a professional pilot says it can't be done you don't like it. From the tone of your replies I can only presume that you've already made your mind up.

Your technical knowledge is impressive for someone who isn't even type-rated but it is far from complete. Many older 757's and 767's have had retrofits to many of their sysyems, not least the aotomatic arming of the autoplilots.

You state that you would use "vertical speed" mode. In my opinion this would be the least desirable because it offers NO speed protection.

I could create a massive list of questions that you probably haven't considered but I don't want to use up all of Danny's bandwidth.

Anyway, if you're actually interested in my two cents worth - and I speak from considerable experience (several thousand hours on 767's and a similar number on 757's) - then yes I suppose it may be achievable but in all probability highly unlikely.

teropa

Pat Pong,

I knew that someone would soon make the remark about me being defensive on the issue. I'll explain a little further...

I'm not fishing for an unanimous agreement that "yes all the knowledgeable sim pilots could do it, sure...".

Neither am I arguing with people here . I'm arguing the arguments as to why it could not be done. Do you see my point ?

I DON'T claim that I could ever know the same amount about a plane than, for example, someone who's type-rated. Not in a million years (at least I hope so, heh). Nor do I claim that I could handfly one such jet (say 767) for more than some manouvering, clean and up far away from ground. I know that professionals are professional, and it's the same with (almost) everything in the world.

AND like Agaricus Bisporus put it: "But remember, we commercial pilot are not paid to pull off uneventful take offs and landings, we are paid (generally guite well) to cope with the emergency situation that without our seldom used expertise would certainly kill all on board. Fortunately most of us never need to earn that money, but sometimes, just occasionally, someone does. And that makes it all worthwhile. " <<<< THAT I wholeheartedly agree!

But the "need" for such a claim that I (or someone knowledgeable enough) could pull this thing off arises from a couple of things, which I will list here. Also this has nothing to do with pretending to be someone I'm not. It's mere speculation and I think it's interesting enough to "eat up the precious bandwidth" (sarcasm added )).

This topic pops up every once in a while in flightsimming community and I believe the reasons to this are:

- the sophistication of systems and modelling in today's "nintendos". It's quite remarkable...really. The core of the simulation is outstanding and many have built whole cockpits around it. (www.projectmagenta.com)

- the amount of information us (serious) armchair pilots have gathered along the years. It's not just playing, hasn't been for years.

- on a personal note: the fact that I handflew a level-D MD11 simulator succesfully for couple of approaches and takeoffs etc. with no problem. It wasn't tough in "all systems OK" -situation. Of course, in the case of emergency the story would be different.. it wouldn't exist .

- on a personal note: the fact that some PPL owners claim that FS flight modelling even in the smaller planes (whose flight dynamics have been compiled by real experts) is crappy, WHICH I couldn't DISAGREE more. I think that, for example, Ron Freimuth's flight dynamics for, say, 172 is right on the money. So this brings up the controversy in larger airliners as well: there are ATPLs who say that "it's very close to the real thing" and those who say that "nintendos have nothing to do with flying". Again, it seems to be a matter of an opinion.

and finally:

- the reasons to why many just "fly" with computers are various: health, money, family-issues etc. Many would like to think that they have actually learnt something from the SIMULATION of the very thing they would like to do MOST, but can't due to the issues they have. It's got something to do with confidence and the rewarding feeling of "I could probably do that" or at least "I could probably learn that" (!)

My personal opinion regarding the matter is already said. But I repeat it: Given the right circumstances (i.e. fully functional aircraft, OK weather and the simpilot being already familiar with the said aircraft's systems) I think that MOST _serious_ (emphasis on the word _serious_) flightsimmers could pull it off if they kept their cool.

I would also like to REMIND those of you, who now say: "I could ask you a thousand questions that you wouldn't know how to answer" , that _so could I_ (!). Remember that I'm not taking an exam here, especially not the theory-part of type-rating for every possible jet ! No one knows everything about everything, for crying out loud. Point being that there are heaps of knowledge and also little pieces of information regarding different types of aircraft, that it would be crazy to say that if a SIMMER doesn't know it all, he/she's not worthy ! Wouldn't you agree ? Are you aware of every possible modification that has been made for every single jet you see parked next to you in the morning when you toss your flight bag behind your seat in the flight deck. I bet you don't.

I thoroughly enjoy this discussion, but I understand if the Chief Pilot doesn't want it to continue anymore. Although I don't see a specific reason to why it couldn't. I respect everyone's opinion and it's only fun to try to justify one's own POVs and such

cheers,
Tero

ETOPS773

I think it could be done as long as all systems are all functioning and weather is favourable.

Not only in a 767 though..Wilco did a good job on it,and its very immersive,but so are the PSS 747-400 and 777-200,and scroggs said on the wannabes forum that their A320 was also very accurate.

So,me,who has been in command of a 777 Level D sim, and got the PSS one aswell,I did an autoland and programmed the FMC no sweat. Slight differences but nothing you cannot figure out with logic.

I have been in the jumpseat of an A300-600R a couple of times though and seeing how fast the ground is coming towards you on final,I would definately be anxious to hear the rumble of the gear on the runway,and soon!!