Helicopter Test pilots
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Helicopter Test pilots
I was curious about how many helicopter test pilots graduate from the various schools around the world each year and what the ratio of rotary to fixed-wing pilots are on the courses. Or is it not as straight forward as that?
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Helicopter Test Pilots' Courses
ETPS commenced Rotary Wing Courses in 1963. By 1990 ETPS was up to its No 28 course. Guess the ratio is about 1 in 10+
John Farley graduated on No 1 Course.
Keith Englesman RAN is still active on rotary and fixed wing with experience on about 300 types. Think he graduated with USN at Pax River.
My first chopper was a Sikorsky S51 in 1952.
ETPS commenced Rotary Wing Courses in 1963. By 1990 ETPS was up to its No 28 course. Guess the ratio is about 1 in 10+
John Farley graduated on No 1 Course.
Keith Englesman RAN is still active on rotary and fixed wing with experience on about 300 types. Think he graduated with USN at Pax River.
My first chopper was a Sikorsky S51 in 1952.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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John Farley graduated on No 1 Course.
JF
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USAF TPS doesn't touch helicopters, so that skews the numbers more in favor of FW, as they do quite a few people every year. USNTPS does about 25% RW, ETPS about the same, not sure about EPNER, but they have a large helicopter contingent. NTPS is about 15% RW, sometimes more.
I find it interesting that the USAF puts through (over the past 20 years or so) 50 people (pilots, navigators, flight test engineers) through their course, the US Navy about 30. The highest ranking USAF TPS graduate has been a 4 star, not sure about the US Navy, but it will certainly be flag rank. The US Army, who has more airframes than the USAF and USN put together, sends, on average 9 pilots a year to the US Navy school. Half are CWOs, who, while they are excellent pilots have no pull, and the other half, who are officers, don't have much flying experience. The highest ranking US Army officer who is a TPS graduate that I know of was a BGen, currently a Colonel.
What does that say about the state of affairs in the RW world?
(Sorry for the rant.... bit of a pet peeve)
I find it interesting that the USAF puts through (over the past 20 years or so) 50 people (pilots, navigators, flight test engineers) through their course, the US Navy about 30. The highest ranking USAF TPS graduate has been a 4 star, not sure about the US Navy, but it will certainly be flag rank. The US Army, who has more airframes than the USAF and USN put together, sends, on average 9 pilots a year to the US Navy school. Half are CWOs, who, while they are excellent pilots have no pull, and the other half, who are officers, don't have much flying experience. The highest ranking US Army officer who is a TPS graduate that I know of was a BGen, currently a Colonel.
What does that say about the state of affairs in the RW world?
(Sorry for the rant.... bit of a pet peeve)
Milt & JT,
K.B.E. graduated ETPS Dec 1973, No 11 Rotary Cse.
Did a deck trial with him on 1-5 April 1974 on "Olmeda", up and down the Channel. Navy were p%^^&d -off as AAEE couldn`t supply Fisheads to do the Trial, so myself and new shiny tp KE went and did it, successfully, even at night in S-K Mk1 XV699, which I think was "051". Nice ship, shame about having to get changed out of goon-suits for lunch,after legging-it all the way from the flight-deck, down 5 decks, up f`orrd, up another few decks, to find scoff had finished, etc etc , but nice rooms, and a very nice batman, for an early morning shake and tea........
K.B.E. graduated ETPS Dec 1973, No 11 Rotary Cse.
Did a deck trial with him on 1-5 April 1974 on "Olmeda", up and down the Channel. Navy were p%^^&d -off as AAEE couldn`t supply Fisheads to do the Trial, so myself and new shiny tp KE went and did it, successfully, even at night in S-K Mk1 XV699, which I think was "051". Nice ship, shame about having to get changed out of goon-suits for lunch,after legging-it all the way from the flight-deck, down 5 decks, up f`orrd, up another few decks, to find scoff had finished, etc etc , but nice rooms, and a very nice batman, for an early morning shake and tea........
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I was at the SETP membership committee meeting yesterday afternoon, and asked the SETP staff if there was some way to separate out RW from FW TPs - unfortunately not. US Army would be relatively easy, but USN would be difficult without some detailed knowledge.
And SETP doesn't attract a lot of rotorheads, sadly.
And SETP doesn't attract a lot of rotorheads, sadly.
Shawn:
Slightly off subject, I know, but I think there are a few 'retired' rotorheads of great experience in UK who may join if the SETP Membership C'tee changes the rules that presently admit to membership only tps in an active tp role. I bumped into a couple of said at the ETPS 60th last year.
Speaking about the UK, on the military side RW tps generally serve only one tour, often extended for RAF tps, but this certainly used to be to stricter posting limits for Army and RN. The extended RAF tour certaily made it easier for me to fulfil the SETP membership requirements in the late 80s. Apart from those tps who go on to a tutor job or return to the T&E system in executive capacity, the civilian take-up is limited, so there is a bit of 'fade'. Perhaps this gives the impression that few RW tps are actually qualifying.
Just a thought, but EPNER must produce a goodly number of RW tps, what with EC France just up the road at Marignane, but am I right in thinking that few of them join SETP?
See you perhaps at Hamilton Place in June?
Slightly off subject, I know, but I think there are a few 'retired' rotorheads of great experience in UK who may join if the SETP Membership C'tee changes the rules that presently admit to membership only tps in an active tp role. I bumped into a couple of said at the ETPS 60th last year.
Speaking about the UK, on the military side RW tps generally serve only one tour, often extended for RAF tps, but this certainly used to be to stricter posting limits for Army and RN. The extended RAF tour certaily made it easier for me to fulfil the SETP membership requirements in the late 80s. Apart from those tps who go on to a tutor job or return to the T&E system in executive capacity, the civilian take-up is limited, so there is a bit of 'fade'. Perhaps this gives the impression that few RW tps are actually qualifying.
Just a thought, but EPNER must produce a goodly number of RW tps, what with EC France just up the road at Marignane, but am I right in thinking that few of them join SETP?
See you perhaps at Hamilton Place in June?
If you separate RW from FW, what do you do next? Separate FJ from Heavy from Light? Civil trained from military? For that matter what do you do with the handful of talented individuals who were trained in one and have migrated to another, or exist in small niches of only two or three specialist Test Pilots?
That said, a non-FT related association that I belong to, the IMechE has a simple approach to this - annually we all are asked to fill out an "activities" questionnaire with our membership form. That creates membership of "groups" within the society - entirely by individual choice - and determines which of the IMechE's many sets of meeting notices, technical newsletters, etc. land on the mat. That presumably wouldn't be at-all difficult for SETP to do?
On the other hand, we were told at the LA symposium last year that SETP needs to reduce the proportion of SCUM in it's membership. That is Southern Californian US Military ! If the society succeeds in that (by, I hasten to add, bringing more of the others in, not throwing anybody out), then most of the concerns others have mentioned above seem to be met in some way.
There is incidentally a helicopters group within the RAeS for those looking for a serious home for helicopter boffinry, but it's membership is all aerospace professionals, not just TPs.
G
That said, a non-FT related association that I belong to, the IMechE has a simple approach to this - annually we all are asked to fill out an "activities" questionnaire with our membership form. That creates membership of "groups" within the society - entirely by individual choice - and determines which of the IMechE's many sets of meeting notices, technical newsletters, etc. land on the mat. That presumably wouldn't be at-all difficult for SETP to do?
On the other hand, we were told at the LA symposium last year that SETP needs to reduce the proportion of SCUM in it's membership. That is Southern Californian US Military ! If the society succeeds in that (by, I hasten to add, bringing more of the others in, not throwing anybody out), then most of the concerns others have mentioned above seem to be met in some way.
There is incidentally a helicopters group within the RAeS for those looking for a serious home for helicopter boffinry, but it's membership is all aerospace professionals, not just TPs.
G
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USNTPS puts through 16-24 RW test pilots each year, with the actual number based on the needs of the programs. They are a mix of USN, USMC, USA, and a few foreign students.
Most of the USN/USMC pilots only spend 2-3 years in flight test and move on. The USA pilots tend to do longer tours in flight test.
When it comes to SETP membership, USN pilots generally join as associate members during their tours in flight test and then drop out as they go on to other jobs.
The most active USN/USMC RW TPs in SETP are those assigned as instructors at USNTPS. They are funded and encouraged to participate.
In the civilian world, using my company as an example, we have around 11 test pilots, most have been members of SETP, but only 3 or 4 are still active.
I think the RW TPs are out there, but they tend to not continue active membership in SETP- maybe they aren't getting much out fo the organization?
AHS also provides a forum for RW flight test types- both pilot and engineer.
Most of the USN/USMC pilots only spend 2-3 years in flight test and move on. The USA pilots tend to do longer tours in flight test.
When it comes to SETP membership, USN pilots generally join as associate members during their tours in flight test and then drop out as they go on to other jobs.
The most active USN/USMC RW TPs in SETP are those assigned as instructors at USNTPS. They are funded and encouraged to participate.
In the civilian world, using my company as an example, we have around 11 test pilots, most have been members of SETP, but only 3 or 4 are still active.
I think the RW TPs are out there, but they tend to not continue active membership in SETP- maybe they aren't getting much out fo the organization?
AHS also provides a forum for RW flight test types- both pilot and engineer.
Last edited by Gregg; 21st May 2004 at 13:37.
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I'll suggest the 'groups' listing at the next meeting, as it will help us to define who the members are and what they do.
The rule on 'actively engaged' is up for a vote soon, and it appears headed for a change.
The rule on 'actively engaged' is up for a vote soon, and it appears headed for a change.
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In my opinion RW TP are not so different from FW TP ! Of course the aircraft are different from each other because of the way they fly, but the job of the TP is not.
And also France is starting to mix their TPs. I now even know a French TP working at Istres (home of EPNER) who was trained at ETPS (hello Eric).
For me, the reason why there are less RW SETP members could be that there are simply more FW aircraft than RW...
And also France is starting to mix their TPs. I now even know a French TP working at Istres (home of EPNER) who was trained at ETPS (hello Eric).
For me, the reason why there are less RW SETP members could be that there are simply more FW aircraft than RW...
I knew an Italian AF FW (AMX) pilot who had been given a RW course, then sent over to the UK to do the ETPS-RW-TP course. After graduation, he went home to work as a TP on both.
UK-CAA's new FW-light aircraft TP is an ex RW-TP with a FW-ATPL. So far, he's doing an excellent job of it despite nor having been formally trained in FW test flying.
One of the UK's main sport flying associations (BMAA) has a CTP who used to be CTP of BA(Helicopters).
So, crossover doesn't seem all that unusual. Mind you, I can't offhand think of anybody who has gone from FW-TP to RW-TP? Is that simply that by proportion, there are already more than enough RW TP's in the world for the finite amount of helicopter test flying that needs doing perhaps?
G
UK-CAA's new FW-light aircraft TP is an ex RW-TP with a FW-ATPL. So far, he's doing an excellent job of it despite nor having been formally trained in FW test flying.
One of the UK's main sport flying associations (BMAA) has a CTP who used to be CTP of BA(Helicopters).
So, crossover doesn't seem all that unusual. Mind you, I can't offhand think of anybody who has gone from FW-TP to RW-TP? Is that simply that by proportion, there are already more than enough RW TP's in the world for the finite amount of helicopter test flying that needs doing perhaps?
G
