Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

military pilots

Old 2nd Mar 2004, 02:09
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: chester/manchester/leeds
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Exclamation military pilots - advice please!!

I'M NOW LOOKING AT ALL MILITARY HELI FLYING OPPORTUNITIES AND SO WOULD WELCOME ANY INPUT FROM PILOTS IN THE 3 FORCES: SEE FURTHER DOWN THE THREAD FOR MY LATEST POST.



hi,

I posted on the career/carrer advice thread but felt I would grab the attention of those I am directing my questions to with the appropriate heading.

Having until only recently neglected the military side of heli aviation, I am now trying to gather as much info. as possible on the Army Air Corps selection/training process and career prospects. I am going take a day off work to visit my local Army careers service, but would appreciate some insight from those military pilots amongst you [British Army, current or ex].

1] At 23 and with only a few years in the Air Cadets as previous mil experience, what are my realistic chances of being selected as an AAC pilot? What could I do to improve my chances?

2] Please clear up for me whether I would have to join as green army and transfer over [this would give me second thoughts] or is direct entry possible? Please note that should I sign up to serve my country, free flight training would not be the sole reason - I just don't fancy signing a commission only never to be transferred to the AAC. I would serve to the best of my ability and see out my commission.

3] The Army website says the typical commission is 7 years. Over this period, what would be the typical flying hours accumulated? What conversion would be required to a civil licence? [Who knows, I may love the army and never need this].

4] Where would I be based??? [I know the 1st year is Sandhurst]

5] Whats life like in general as a Mil pilot? The pay for liutenants looks to match the raises I can expect to get if I carry on in my current job, but I would have to consider my girlfriend. How much time is spent at home/on base and how much away on tours?

Anything you could tell me would be great, as I could do with some good background info before I go along to see the Army reps.

Cheers,
Phil.

[Heliport, please move this to the mil forum if you think it'd be more appropriate]

Last edited by empty pockets; 4th Mar 2004 at 17:48.
empty pockets is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2004, 15:18
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: wallop
Posts: 338
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Army Pilots

Empty pockets,
You asked alot of questions about Army aviation!!!, I'll try and answer as many as I can.

1/ At 23 your chances are fairly good. Do you have a degree?, if so your promotion will be that much quicker (Army careers will be able to help with all info with pay and terms of service).
As far as improving your chances the main thing you can do is to look at the procedure for applying to RCB (Regular Commisions Board) and brushing up on current affairs.

2/Direct Entry to the AAC is availible however competition is fierce and a strong year at Sandhurst is required to be selected.
A big factor in the selection of an officer in the AAC is that you will have the ability and desire to lead soldiers, not just to fly.

3/The training pipeline after a year at Sandhurst is around 18 months to wings, thereafter there is currently a short delay of between 3-4 months for conversion to type(Lynx Gazelle).
Ab-initio pilots are converting to AH, however many are gaining some experience on other types prior to AH.

4/ For possible postings have a chat with the Careers office, they will give the up to date locations (Germany, Wattisham,N Ireland, Dishforth).

5/ I have recently finished flying training and am finding life in the army superb, there are downsides but are'nt there in any job!!!
Op tours come around with different frequency depending on where you are and how lucky/unlucky you are .....thats life!

hope this was some help

ralph
ralphmalph is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2004, 19:47
  #3 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: chester/manchester/leeds
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I do have a degree [in aero engineering] and have been on management/leadership courses with work [I am a manufacturing manager with about 30 people under me], which I hope will be in my favour. What I am worried about is how to answer questions along the lines of 'Why have you only now showing interest?' 'Why didn't you join the CCF at university?' etc.

What would constitute a 'strong year' at Sandhurst? I'd always thought that you applied for a particular position and were automatically posted to the relevant unit after basic training. Will I have to simply apply as an officer and then to the AAC?

Also, how many trainee pilots do they take on, on average, per year, and how many applicants do they get?

I know I should be asking the training officer these qns, but as I said I want a fair idea of what to expect before I go and speak to them. Feel free to PM me with your answers/advice if you don't want to post.

Cheers Again,
Phil.
empty pockets is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2004, 22:50
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
EP,

I know I will recieve my usual "verbal slapping" for this but if it's strictly a job as an aviator you are looking for have considered the opportunities a life in either of the "two shades of blue" might offer.

The work ethic is very differant and if you apply for, are selected and complete the training for pilot..........then thats exactly what you will be...........for as long as you so desire.....within reason.

If you expand your question to seek advice from the many RAF and RN pilots in these hallowed halls who knows where you could end up.

Whatever tho' best of luck

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Always_broken_in_wilts is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2004, 01:09
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 567
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
EP,

If you join the AAC as an Officer you will probably only get 1 possibly 2 flying tours. (Maybe AH). Stand by to then finish flying, unless you become a QHI

If you join through the ranks your chances of becoming a Pilot are slim. Long slow promotion.

That said the AAC is a good choice. However for really varied flying with a long career, I would suggest you try the FAA and go down the "Junglie" line.

Finally you can always join the RAF.

Look long and seriously at what you want from mil aviation.

Finally you'll find quite a bit of advice inbound some good some bad, sift it well!!

Good luck.
timex is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2004, 18:32
  #6 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: chester/manchester/leeds
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Question mil heli flying

Thanks for the replies so far. Having done a little more research and searched this forum for the relevant threads, I have decided to look at heli opportunities in the forces as a whole.

My primary interest in a military career is to become a competent and experienced heli pilot, flying as often as possible whilst performing challenging/varied duties as an officer. From reading other threads, I understand that I would be desk bound after my first tour in the AAC, which is not a wholly attractive proposition. Without descending into a cross-forces slanging match, could anyone shed light on the following queries. I intend to take next one day off work next week to visit my local forces career centre.

ARMY:

I gather that the NCO pilots are the ones who get the long flying career unless I get into the apache programme [am i right that its 1yr training to type and a 4yr commitment?] or become a flying instructor. The apache programme would be great, but does anyone have an idea of the expected intake over the next few years? I would not be undeterred by impeded promotion prospects as an instructor if the flying was there. Is this varied flying and how much of it is there annually?

Assuming I have the skills and some luck, 1 year @ sandhurst + 18 months to wings + 5 yr apache brings me to the end of my commission. What are the chances of this happening [prbably nil but do tell]. What then? I would be hard pushed to extend my service period only to spend it in a desk job. How easy is it to transfer between the forces during and after a commission?

NAVY:

I don't know jack about the Fleet Air Arm as I only looked into it this morning! Please tell me about the selection process. I only know of one friend of mine who tried to get in as a pilot a few years ago but was knocked back after the aptitude tests. What is the typical length of commission required for pilots?

I'd imagine that the first 2 1/2 years would be pretty much as per the AAC [officer training + wings]. What then? Would I be heading desk bound after a few years or is there a greater possibility of a long and varied flying career. TIMEX suggests going down the 'junglies route'. What is this? I've seen FAA pilots referred to as crabs or junglies, whats the difference?

RAF:

Being a bit of a doofus sometimes, I 'd ruled out the RAF as I dream of flying a rotary a/c rather than a plank - even though I was in the air cadets and flew in an RAF sea king [D'OH!].

Correct me if I'm wrong [as I probably am] but do all RAF pilots not simply apply as 'pilot' then get streamed off into the various discilpines [helis, fast jet etc] according to aptitude and ability. Is a preference to fly helis not considered?

Again, what is the typical commission offered and how much of that will be spent as an active pilot?

GENERAL:

If you've got this far, thanks a bunch. I've lost count myself of the number of questions asked in this post, but I need as much info as I can before I decide which route to take. I've still got space for a few more though, so might as well use it!!

I've asked about commission lengths for each service. I'm not obsessed with quitting after the minimum, I just need to know if there's going to be a way out if I find I'm not suited to the military [I believe I am but haven't experienced it yet]. Sticking to the minimums [6yr AAC, 6yr return of service RAF, no idea for FAA] which would you choose if you were primarily interested in an aviation orientated commission? Would you recommend a mixed service career? [i.e. FAA with secondments in the others] and how easy is this to achieve?

Lastly [yes, i'm nearly finished] please clear up something for me. If I apply to the Navy, for example, and fail pilot selection. Do I then still have to join up in a non flying role or am I still a free agent? What is the situation if I get chopped before receiving my wings?

Thanks again, I'll shut up now
empty pockets is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2004, 21:55
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Flying a plank?? Eyyyyy?

Take it you mean a desk?

The way I see it, the RAF has got to be at least very seriously considered. You sound fairly time conscious, so the fact that RAF IOT is half the length of the other two services' Offr trg (same content but without the extra drill!) and that the RAF seems to be trg a lot of rotary guys at the mo, have got to work in your favour. You may have read about the FJ situation, so my guess is if u finish EFT and request Rotary, it's probably yours - unless you're the kiddy and are sent the winner's way! I wouldn't recommend turning up at OASC with such open wishes for Rotary, they're still keen for every candidate to want to be a Harrier/Typhoon pilot.

Nice one on dropping that, possibly accidental, crab/junglie comment on the FAA. I wait with baited breath for the standard, reliably average fish-head retorts!

Best of Luck
Spugford is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2004, 01:31
  #8 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: chester/manchester/leeds
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
plank = fixed wing a/c. I'm guessing that a crab is probably a derogatory term for FAA pilots [something to do with going sideways??] but am still intrigued what a junglie is.

yeah, i am relatively time conscious as i feel ive wasted too much time with university and entering a career i have no desire to continue with. i'll go chat to the training pfficers, then no doubt i'll need some further advice as i sift through their PR bullsh*t.

Phil.
empty pockets is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2004, 01:51
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Empty,
Crab actually refers to those of us in the RAF, a term the fishheads use. Believe it came about when the RAF first acquired its uniforms - they looked similar to crab paste, a popular tinned food in those days. But I digress...
Junglies are the Navy Seaking mates who get involved in wacky stuff with the marines etc, as opposed to be being tied to the ship 'pinging'. (apologies to the Navy brethren for this oversimplification).
As far as the streaming within the air force goes, most people come with the "all I've ever wanted to do is fly fast jets" approach. In most cases, as far as I've seen, those who show a preference to helos or multis, get it.
But Planks!!???
Stray Fin is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2004, 04:15
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Easy pockets and Stray Fin

'Crabs' or 'Crabfats' does refer to the colour of uniform, but unfortunately for them it's got nothing to do with dodgy fish paste! When the RAF was formed on 1 Apr 1918 (ironic date!), the uniform came from a consignment that had been destined for the Tsar of Russia's Army but was now going spare, so the RAF got it. Unfortunately for them, the colour matched the colour of the stuff that Jack used to get rid of genital lice, which he called 'Crabfat', hence the nickname!

As far as a rotary flying career goes, the Army isn't too bad if you want to be a soldier that does some flying, although if you do join as an officer, you'll be taken out of flying after a few years as you become more senior and you'll end up driving a desk. Alternatively, if you came from a regiment other than the AAC originally, you may have to go back to your source reg. (You'll also have to put up with the 'SNCO pilot Mafia' towards junior officers!) <Oops! Dives into trench, pulling on helmet, "Incoming!!">

The option of joining the Senior Service is definitely one to consider. You can spend your flying career having an outstanding time flying and taking the p**s out of the Crabs at every opportunity! You would join Dartmouth as Aircrew and end up flying the SHAR, Pingers, Junglies, a Bag or the Lynx for a living. (Translation for the Crabs: Sea Harrier, Anti-Submarine Sea King, Commando Sea King, Airborne Early Warning Sea King and....Lynx)

I may be biased (and I am), but even our Crab exchanges agree, flying in the RN is much more fun than in light blue.....less red tape, more flexibility, better quality flying and at least the Navy has traditions! (The Crabs aren't old enough to have traditions, they just have habits and most of them are bad!!)

OK, so if you want to be a pilot, rotary or otherwise, the RAF is designed around what they refer to as 'the two winged master race', where unless you are a pilot, you're nobody, but I still reckon you can have more fun in the RN, and particularly as a Jungly.

(Junglies are the Commando Sea King community who work in support of 3 Cdo Bde and anyone else that needs to get the job done. We do troop moves, loadlifting, casevac, and stores transport (support helicopter roles) and we do it day or night in almost any weather. Low level, NVG formation flying is the sport of Kings! )

Whatever your choice, make sure you know what you want and can justify it. The selection board, whether they are AIB, RCB or OASC, will want you to be committed to the job or you won't get in. (Applying to different Services isn't too much of a snag, it's the guys who just want to get a cheap ATPL that they'll weed out)

Good luck whatever you choose!
snafu is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2004, 05:31
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Red Red Back to Bed
Posts: 541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Unfortunately for them, the colour matched the colour of the stuff that Jack used to get rid of genital lice, which he called 'Crabfat', hence the nickname!
And at the first sign of danger they scuttle away sideways.

Naval Aviator - 12 Year Initial Commission - BRNC then Flying training then Frontline. If you dont get involved in any fishead activities you can pretty much stay in the cockpit the whole time.
All officers in the Navy are considered for a pensionable commisson (16 years service) unless you specifically tell them not to. If you want to stay on past 16 years you go into competition with all other officers. You can then go down the Professional Aviator route (which is the same as the RAF) whereby you stay in the cockpit or in an aviation related appointment and dont have to do anything outside of aviation.

If you are thinking of joining any of the Services, do it quick before they force you to join the new pension scheme (1 Apr 05 ????) which (IMHO) is not as good as the present one.

Oggin

p.s. Even as a bagman I think Junglies are great too
Oggin Aviator is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2004, 17:36
  #12 (permalink)  
OMT
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The time from Joining the RN to going frontline is going to take some years.
You join BRNC Dartmouth and do 9 months there, including 3 weeks flying grading with 727 Sq at Roborough airport. This is now done i your first 14 weeks to make sure neither yourself nor the Navy are wasting their time.

Having passed out from BRNC you will start DEFTS at RAF CRanwell within a few months. 6 month course there then get selected for fixed wing or rotary.
If fixed wing expect another couple of years (not including holdovers before getting onto an Operational training squadron.
If rotary you do a course at Shawbury then get streamed onto helo type. Join Advanced/ operational training sq, pass course, get wings.

For helo expect about 3-4 years from joining to frontline.
For fast jet make that 5-6 years.
Return of service is 6 years for both routes, you are guaranteed an Initial Commission for 12 years when you join.

Hope that helps.
OMT is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2004, 03:31
  #13 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 80
Posts: 16,777
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Why are you only thinking about a military flying career now?
Why didn't you join the CCF at university?

You didn't join the Combined Cadet Force as this is an equivalent to the Army, Air Cadets or Sea Cadets but is usually only found at public school.

At the university the RAF has a number of UAS University Air Squadrons. Your confusion suggests an escape route. There are only a few UAS, East Midland, Lancs, etc, I don't know the names but they are only near some universities. The One at Southport is 'near' (relative term) Liverpool, Manchester, Salford and Lancaster and any othe rodds and sod in that area.

If they did not have a high profile, or even presence, at your uni then that is your 'out'.

The important answer is to the question 'What have you done to further your knowledge of ...'

We had a MOST impressive woman from Barclay's Bank. She decided she wanted to be an RAF Fighter Controller. She asked their airships (directly) for visits to RAF Waddington and the E3 and to the School of Fighter Control to see if the jobs were suitable for her, never mind whether we wanted her. She was formidable and left with a tag 'must recruit her.' Unfortunately I do not know if she applied nor how the recruiters and trainers handled her (if they did).

Finally, while it is true that the RAF streams its pilots to match abilities and bums on seats, an overriding and absolute desire to do just one thing, such as SAR or Merlin cabs, is usually enough to influence those that will select your posting.

A nav in the 70's had a burning ambition to fly SAR Sea King. He was bloody good but posted to Nimrods. After a tour and the introduction of Sea Kings he applied for and passed the aptitude tests to be a helicopter winch operator and nav. He then served 20 years on the SAR Force.

In my case I wanted to navigate rather than pilot. I too got what I wanted.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2004, 22:56
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Warrington, UK
Posts: 3,832
Received 71 Likes on 27 Posts
Empty pockets. A strong year at Sandhurst means doing extremely well, ie getting good results. Being accepted for Sandhurst is the first hurdle. You then have to convince the Regt/Corps of your choice that you are right for them. They will look at you and make THEIR choice. Obviously the AAC require a different sort of person to fly their aircraft than the Royal Logistic Corps need to look after their trucks.

If you're still thinking Army, then don't believe everything that you're told at the Careers Office. Unless the person you speak to is AAC, then they'll have little idea of the life and times of an AAC officer.

If you can, try and get a visit to an AAC Regiment, either at Dishforth(Yorkshire), Wattisham(Suffolk), or even a visit to the AAC Centre at Middle Wallop(Hampshire).
MightyGem is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2004, 08:57
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: ecosse
Posts: 714
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Stray Fin & SNAFU
You were both nearly there
The cream the RN used for genital lice looked very much like the blue Blanco paste which was used on RAF webbing in those days, hence Crab Fat, later shortened to the affectionate term -"Crabs"
buoy15 is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2004, 14:17
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 26,783
Received 257 Likes on 103 Posts
Which begs the question, why was this RN 'treatment' so widely known about? Some jolly jack tar habits which meant widespread contagion with lice?

Was it used by the other services - or just the RN?
BEagle is online now  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.