Adler Tag
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Wiley,
Valettas? Michells maybe, but Valettas were fifties evolutions of the Wellington for troop carrying/ para dropping/ bomb aiming training, etc.
I agree Charlwood's book is exceptioonally well written. Unfortunately I leant mine to a "mate" who has yet to return it. I must get hasting's book. Incidentally his autobiography about being a war correspondent is a very good read.
Valettas? Michells maybe, but Valettas were fifties evolutions of the Wellington for troop carrying/ para dropping/ bomb aiming training, etc.
I agree Charlwood's book is exceptioonally well written. Unfortunately I leant mine to a "mate" who has yet to return it. I must get hasting's book. Incidentally his autobiography about being a war correspondent is a very good read.
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I saw a documentary recently, ITV I think,
late at night called the Battle of Britain
I watched it somehow expecting it to
be one of a series. But have never seen
a part two. It wasn't all that well made but
it made quite an impact on me.
Essentially it drew on the experiences of
several veterans from one squadron,
the number escapes me. They used
mostly stock shots and BoB film clips.
But it was the way the introduced us to
various members of the squadron, the
two Polish pilots and other characters
showed us photos, described their activities
on and off duty and in a form of chronology
described daily events and what happened
to them. The two poles were lost as were
many of the others. Survivors described
them and their own fate, shot down wounded,
burned.
A woman read a letter from
her fighter pilot fiance, then we learn his
fate.
It was all quite affecting, for the first time
I saw it in real personal terms. I've lost a
couple of friends in accidents, but to see
it as an unremitting daily toll put a whole new
perspective on it.
I don't how I would react if on a daily
basis friends of mine, better pilots and
people were lost in a bitter cycle.
As for bombers and their fate.
Aircrew flying medium and light
bombers like the Blenheim and the
Beaufort who suffered enormous
losses on daylight raids and shipping
sorties must have been of very
strong stuff indeed to carry on
as they did. Stories of whole
squadrons wiped out in a couple
of weeks were common.
I find it difficult to imagine
what it would be like.
late at night called the Battle of Britain
I watched it somehow expecting it to
be one of a series. But have never seen
a part two. It wasn't all that well made but
it made quite an impact on me.
Essentially it drew on the experiences of
several veterans from one squadron,
the number escapes me. They used
mostly stock shots and BoB film clips.
But it was the way the introduced us to
various members of the squadron, the
two Polish pilots and other characters
showed us photos, described their activities
on and off duty and in a form of chronology
described daily events and what happened
to them. The two poles were lost as were
many of the others. Survivors described
them and their own fate, shot down wounded,
burned.
A woman read a letter from
her fighter pilot fiance, then we learn his
fate.
It was all quite affecting, for the first time
I saw it in real personal terms. I've lost a
couple of friends in accidents, but to see
it as an unremitting daily toll put a whole new
perspective on it.
I don't how I would react if on a daily
basis friends of mine, better pilots and
people were lost in a bitter cycle.
As for bombers and their fate.
Aircrew flying medium and light
bombers like the Blenheim and the
Beaufort who suffered enormous
losses on daylight raids and shipping
sorties must have been of very
strong stuff indeed to carry on
as they did. Stories of whole
squadrons wiped out in a couple
of weeks were common.
I find it difficult to imagine
what it would be like.
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Thanks for the correction, Skua. I did hesitate on 'Valettas' at the time of posting, and of course, you're right.
There was a v.light day bomber with a name something like that. I think it was a militarised Lockeed twin, one of the many types the Brits bought in quantity from the U.S. on Lend Lease early in the war, not because they were what they wanted, but because they were available. (Mitchells didn't come until sometime later in the war, at least not in any great quantities.)
The crews of these light twin bombers were little short of Kamakazis. In 'They Hosed Them Out', the author describes a 36 aircraft daylight raid (3 squadrons) into Holland that was bounced by 60+ FW190s and Bf109s. The leading squadron lost eleven (ELEVEN!) of its twelve aircraft in a matter of minutes and the following squadrons, four or five more. The senior surviving pilot in one of the following squadrons aborted the raid and ordered a return to base - and was charged with LMF when he returned.
There was a v.light day bomber with a name something like that. I think it was a militarised Lockeed twin, one of the many types the Brits bought in quantity from the U.S. on Lend Lease early in the war, not because they were what they wanted, but because they were available. (Mitchells didn't come until sometime later in the war, at least not in any great quantities.)
The crews of these light twin bombers were little short of Kamakazis. In 'They Hosed Them Out', the author describes a 36 aircraft daylight raid (3 squadrons) into Holland that was bounced by 60+ FW190s and Bf109s. The leading squadron lost eleven (ELEVEN!) of its twelve aircraft in a matter of minutes and the following squadrons, four or five more. The senior surviving pilot in one of the following squadrons aborted the raid and ordered a return to base - and was charged with LMF when he returned.
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If you ever get a chance to buy a copy, the VV best book on the BoB (IMHO) is "Battle Over Britain" by Francis K Mason F.R. Hist.S., A.R.Ae.S., RAF with German research by Martin Windrow, A.R.Hist.S., C.R.Ae.S.
"A history of the German air assaults on Great Britain, 1917-18 and July-December 1940, and of the development of Britain's air defences between the wars".
As an air defender of 30 years experience, I am in awe of this book, it's knowledge, and it's erudition.
My only sad omission is that I discovered it in a library, could not, despite extreme efforts, find a copy to buy, and had to "lose" it and pay the penalty. As I write it sits beside me with the Norfolk County library stamp on it (1975, forgive my youth).
Sorry for all those I denied the privilege.
(SBN 901928 00 3, published in GB by McWhirter Twins Ltd. 24 Upper Brook Street London, W.1. 1969)
(And if they are/where the same twins who started the Guinness book of Records, I call it quits!)
[This message has been edited by ORAC (edited 22 September 2000).]
"A history of the German air assaults on Great Britain, 1917-18 and July-December 1940, and of the development of Britain's air defences between the wars".
As an air defender of 30 years experience, I am in awe of this book, it's knowledge, and it's erudition.
My only sad omission is that I discovered it in a library, could not, despite extreme efforts, find a copy to buy, and had to "lose" it and pay the penalty. As I write it sits beside me with the Norfolk County library stamp on it (1975, forgive my youth).
Sorry for all those I denied the privilege.
(SBN 901928 00 3, published in GB by McWhirter Twins Ltd. 24 Upper Brook Street London, W.1. 1969)
(And if they are/where the same twins who started the Guinness book of Records, I call it quits!)
[This message has been edited by ORAC (edited 22 September 2000).]
Guest
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The Spectator, 16 September. Letter from: Peter J Farrell.
"Sir,
As we celebrate the 60th Anniversary of the Battle of Britain, the true story of that battle should be told.
It was not the Spitfires nor the Hurricanes or their pilots which alone won that battle. The victory was due to a remarkable piece of British technology. The Mark 7 - or Bluenose - bullet. This bullet, so called for it's blue nose (in contrast to the rednose or tracer bullet, or blacknose or armour piercing bullet) exploded when it hit it's target and blew a hole a size of your fist.
This was Britain's complete answer to the German air forces self-sealing petrol tank. There was no defence against it. On 15 September the bluenose bullets were issued to all fighter aircraft used in the defence of Britain. On that day 185 German aircraft were destroyed and the next day Goering stopped daylight raids." END
- Now, I am not an expert on such things. What I have suggests that the 15th was a cusp. (RAF losses 35. German 80). However, it seemed to be repeated just over a week later when the weather cleared on the 27th (RAF losses 41, German 67) so I cannot, hand on heart, justify a sudden change in losses which, cause unknown, would seem to have changed the Luftwaffe tactics. And, as I say, the figures seem wrong anyway.
I am more interested in the concept. It would not have been the first time an new engineering idea solved a problem for the glory to be taken by the pilot, particularily in war (Cat's eye Cunningham and AI radar for example). Even if it was not over one day or one week, are the facts about the round correct and was it that dramatic an improvement?
Any professional knowledge out there?
Anyone wishing to respond personally to the letter the address of the magazine is:
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by ORAC (edited 24 September 2000).]
"Sir,
As we celebrate the 60th Anniversary of the Battle of Britain, the true story of that battle should be told.
It was not the Spitfires nor the Hurricanes or their pilots which alone won that battle. The victory was due to a remarkable piece of British technology. The Mark 7 - or Bluenose - bullet. This bullet, so called for it's blue nose (in contrast to the rednose or tracer bullet, or blacknose or armour piercing bullet) exploded when it hit it's target and blew a hole a size of your fist.
This was Britain's complete answer to the German air forces self-sealing petrol tank. There was no defence against it. On 15 September the bluenose bullets were issued to all fighter aircraft used in the defence of Britain. On that day 185 German aircraft were destroyed and the next day Goering stopped daylight raids." END
- Now, I am not an expert on such things. What I have suggests that the 15th was a cusp. (RAF losses 35. German 80). However, it seemed to be repeated just over a week later when the weather cleared on the 27th (RAF losses 41, German 67) so I cannot, hand on heart, justify a sudden change in losses which, cause unknown, would seem to have changed the Luftwaffe tactics. And, as I say, the figures seem wrong anyway.
I am more interested in the concept. It would not have been the first time an new engineering idea solved a problem for the glory to be taken by the pilot, particularily in war (Cat's eye Cunningham and AI radar for example). Even if it was not over one day or one week, are the facts about the round correct and was it that dramatic an improvement?
Any professional knowledge out there?
Anyone wishing to respond personally to the letter the address of the magazine is:
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by ORAC (edited 24 September 2000).]
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Great posts folks.
ANZAC day is not celebrated as a Victory over any one. Indeed it was the successful retreat off Turkish soil with no casualties is one of the reasons as to why it is remembered. It was Australia's baptism of fire. I can't speak on how it is handled in New Zealand.
WRT to WW2. My dear ol' dad was a lad in Glasgow during WW2. Yeah, he saw some horrible things, things that he finds difficult to talk about even now. My grandfather was in Air Sea Rescue on the Mediteranean Sea. He told me this story. He was watching a dog fight high above him. It was between an American and a German. The American shot down the German but he managed to parachute to safety. My grandfather and team set off to get the downed aviator. As they got him on board they noticed his hands were badly burnt. Eventually they got back to shore and waiting for them was the American aviator. "hello" they all thought. The American approached the German and saw that his hands were burnt and bandaged. He asked the German would he like a smoke (how ironic), the German indicated yes. So the American lit a cigarette and placed it in the Germans mouth so he could smoke it. I suppose it was a "no hard feelings" gesture. I think they respected each other for their skill and let's face it, bravery.
Much of the detail is left out and sadly my grandfather passed on a while ago so I can't get any more stories like that one.
Thanks to all that fought for our freedon.
ANZAC day is not celebrated as a Victory over any one. Indeed it was the successful retreat off Turkish soil with no casualties is one of the reasons as to why it is remembered. It was Australia's baptism of fire. I can't speak on how it is handled in New Zealand.
WRT to WW2. My dear ol' dad was a lad in Glasgow during WW2. Yeah, he saw some horrible things, things that he finds difficult to talk about even now. My grandfather was in Air Sea Rescue on the Mediteranean Sea. He told me this story. He was watching a dog fight high above him. It was between an American and a German. The American shot down the German but he managed to parachute to safety. My grandfather and team set off to get the downed aviator. As they got him on board they noticed his hands were badly burnt. Eventually they got back to shore and waiting for them was the American aviator. "hello" they all thought. The American approached the German and saw that his hands were burnt and bandaged. He asked the German would he like a smoke (how ironic), the German indicated yes. So the American lit a cigarette and placed it in the Germans mouth so he could smoke it. I suppose it was a "no hard feelings" gesture. I think they respected each other for their skill and let's face it, bravery.
Much of the detail is left out and sadly my grandfather passed on a while ago so I can't get any more stories like that one.
Thanks to all that fought for our freedon.
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I'm afraid the information about the Mk VII .303 round is incorrect. I don't have access to any referance books at the moment but the Mk VII was a spire pointed round. It superceeded/ was introduced to replace, the Mk VI which was round nosed and parellel sided in 1910 ! Basically the pointed tip gives better supersonic performance and reduces drag at sub sonic speeds. Basically better retention of muzzel velicity, giving a flatter trajectory, less aim-off and a greater terminal energy transfer.
The Mk VII z used a nitrocellulose based propellant and this would have been virtually universal by the time of the Battle. Manufacturers coloured the primer annules, black prior to 1918 and after purple for Ball, red tracer, explosive orange and incendiary blue. Apparantly to ease identification bullet tips were also painted, initially this would have been done by service armourers so the blue colour is not necessarilly incorrect, local variations being known. However Blue tip - incendiary, white air to air short range day tracer, gray air to air short range night tracer, black - observation (flash on impact), no colour ball.
Explosive/inceniary rounds were used, some being derived from the Buckingham designs of the First World War, however they tended not to be terribly effective, bear in mind that the bullet diameter is only .303 (7.7 mm)There simply isn't a lot of free payload in these calibers. Also the vast majority of rounds would have passed straight through a wing or fuselage section, very likely the exit hole being larger as the round would have been upset and accompanied by high speed fragments from the entry hole. But certainly not fist sized. (viz. Fabric patches on Hurricanes and I believe that one of the Memorial Flight Spits still has battle damage repaired wings, not BoB though ?)
The Mk VII was in service, I have dug then out of the sand at Dunkirk with mfg date stamps in the mid 36s.
To improve performance you need to go up to 20 mm or so, as the german cannon and later marks of the Spit and Hurricane. Slower rate of fire, worse trajectory, slower muzzel velocity so harder to deflection shoot. If anything it would have been the mechinical computing gunsights coming into service that would have improved the average pilots lot as these would at least allow accurate shooting of cannon.
Interestingly enough the ADEN cannon series is a reworking of the German MG 151/15 and MG 20, both of which the Luftwaffe would have used in the BoB.
The Mk VII z used a nitrocellulose based propellant and this would have been virtually universal by the time of the Battle. Manufacturers coloured the primer annules, black prior to 1918 and after purple for Ball, red tracer, explosive orange and incendiary blue. Apparantly to ease identification bullet tips were also painted, initially this would have been done by service armourers so the blue colour is not necessarilly incorrect, local variations being known. However Blue tip - incendiary, white air to air short range day tracer, gray air to air short range night tracer, black - observation (flash on impact), no colour ball.
Explosive/inceniary rounds were used, some being derived from the Buckingham designs of the First World War, however they tended not to be terribly effective, bear in mind that the bullet diameter is only .303 (7.7 mm)There simply isn't a lot of free payload in these calibers. Also the vast majority of rounds would have passed straight through a wing or fuselage section, very likely the exit hole being larger as the round would have been upset and accompanied by high speed fragments from the entry hole. But certainly not fist sized. (viz. Fabric patches on Hurricanes and I believe that one of the Memorial Flight Spits still has battle damage repaired wings, not BoB though ?)
The Mk VII was in service, I have dug then out of the sand at Dunkirk with mfg date stamps in the mid 36s.
To improve performance you need to go up to 20 mm or so, as the german cannon and later marks of the Spit and Hurricane. Slower rate of fire, worse trajectory, slower muzzel velocity so harder to deflection shoot. If anything it would have been the mechinical computing gunsights coming into service that would have improved the average pilots lot as these would at least allow accurate shooting of cannon.
Interestingly enough the ADEN cannon series is a reworking of the German MG 151/15 and MG 20, both of which the Luftwaffe would have used in the BoB.
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The incendiary ammunition was I'm sure better known by as de Witt.
The contrast in the use of firepower was interesting between the 2 sides.
On the one hand,the British with the relatively small calibre .303-the 8 Brownings on the Spitfire and Hurricane I suppose was similar to a shotgun effect,of course very effective at short range.
The Germans on the other hand with the (20mm?) cannon on either wing, and (7.92mm?)
machine guns was probably more potent in the hands of a good shot.However it would be easier to miss the target, but when you hit, you sure did.
Much is said of the lesser experience of the British, sometimes described as the gentlemen V the players.Perhaps the scales were more evenly matched by their choice of weapons.
The contrast in the use of firepower was interesting between the 2 sides.
On the one hand,the British with the relatively small calibre .303-the 8 Brownings on the Spitfire and Hurricane I suppose was similar to a shotgun effect,of course very effective at short range.
The Germans on the other hand with the (20mm?) cannon on either wing, and (7.92mm?)
machine guns was probably more potent in the hands of a good shot.However it would be easier to miss the target, but when you hit, you sure did.
Much is said of the lesser experience of the British, sometimes described as the gentlemen V the players.Perhaps the scales were more evenly matched by their choice of weapons.
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A link to a series of charts comparing weight of fire and energy :-
http://hipe.uia.ac.be/~gustin/scratch/fgun/fgun-ta.html
The Brownings would be 'synchronised' so that a cone of 0.303 fire converged at 300 yrds (I think)I seem to remember that individual pilots would arrange for this range to be considerably reduced and only open fire at much reduced ranges if possible. There was quite bit of debate as to the desirabillity of using cannon, a number of Aces were able to arrange to fly in the eight gun fighters. Differing wings were built, the type A, retrospectively applied to the original eight Brownings, type B two Hispano 20mm and four .303, the type C which could be fitted with type A or B configurations, or four 20mm Hispanos, also known as the 'Universal' All but about 30 of the spits in the BoB were type A, these being B wing Mk Is. Type E carried two 20mm and two .5 inch but came later.
Regarding the original Spectator post it turns out that there was a Mk VII incendiary Mk 7 bullet, incendiary not explosive, but I think that the comments above still hold. Aircraft could be very difficult to shoot down, I've just come across a page, and promptly lost it, where a US Carrier fighter returns to land on with two 37mm AA hits, six 20mm and 270 rifle caliber bulletholes.!!
Anybody know how many rounds a Spitfire or Hurricane would carry?
http://hipe.uia.ac.be/~gustin/scratch/fgun/fgun-ta.html
The Brownings would be 'synchronised' so that a cone of 0.303 fire converged at 300 yrds (I think)I seem to remember that individual pilots would arrange for this range to be considerably reduced and only open fire at much reduced ranges if possible. There was quite bit of debate as to the desirabillity of using cannon, a number of Aces were able to arrange to fly in the eight gun fighters. Differing wings were built, the type A, retrospectively applied to the original eight Brownings, type B two Hispano 20mm and four .303, the type C which could be fitted with type A or B configurations, or four 20mm Hispanos, also known as the 'Universal' All but about 30 of the spits in the BoB were type A, these being B wing Mk Is. Type E carried two 20mm and two .5 inch but came later.
Regarding the original Spectator post it turns out that there was a Mk VII incendiary Mk 7 bullet, incendiary not explosive, but I think that the comments above still hold. Aircraft could be very difficult to shoot down, I've just come across a page, and promptly lost it, where a US Carrier fighter returns to land on with two 37mm AA hits, six 20mm and 270 rifle caliber bulletholes.!!
Anybody know how many rounds a Spitfire or Hurricane would carry?
