MANSTON
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ramsgate, Kent
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On what is one of the busiest weekends of the year for most airports, Manston is silent, I keep hearing about Newmarket and Kent Escapes. Did they not bother doing any flights for Easter? When do they start? Are they planning to operate for just a couple of weeks in the Summer?
And I keep hearing about investment in the airfield. Personally, I would draw a distinction between investment and spending money on repairs and maintenance. The radar was stuffed. It had to be fixed. That's not investment. It's just running costs. Real money will have to be spent on sorting out the airfield's drainage and fuel tanks. Again. this is money down the drain (pardon the pun). These things don't increase your revenue stream (like a new terminal). They just allow you to keep going.
I think Infratil have some tough decisions to make. The airfield needs investment, millions of pounds. If they're as hard-headed as everyone says, I think they'll, want to see concrete evidence that they will get a return on their investment. The odd flight, now and then, doesn't really constitute hard evidence.
P.S. 1.5 million passengers in the next two years. Let's assume they shift 100,000 this year (I'm being generous). They'd have to announce some pretty massive deals to hit this target. Let's not forget, the existing terminal was never designed to cope with these sorts of numbers. They can only cope when there's a steady stream. In my humble opinion, it's doubtful you could get anywhere near this number without a new terminal. Oh look, more millions required.
And I keep hearing about investment in the airfield. Personally, I would draw a distinction between investment and spending money on repairs and maintenance. The radar was stuffed. It had to be fixed. That's not investment. It's just running costs. Real money will have to be spent on sorting out the airfield's drainage and fuel tanks. Again. this is money down the drain (pardon the pun). These things don't increase your revenue stream (like a new terminal). They just allow you to keep going.
I think Infratil have some tough decisions to make. The airfield needs investment, millions of pounds. If they're as hard-headed as everyone says, I think they'll, want to see concrete evidence that they will get a return on their investment. The odd flight, now and then, doesn't really constitute hard evidence.
P.S. 1.5 million passengers in the next two years. Let's assume they shift 100,000 this year (I'm being generous). They'd have to announce some pretty massive deals to hit this target. Let's not forget, the existing terminal was never designed to cope with these sorts of numbers. They can only cope when there's a steady stream. In my humble opinion, it's doubtful you could get anywhere near this number without a new terminal. Oh look, more millions required.
Join Date: Dec 2004
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On what is one of the busiest weekends of the year for most airports, Manston is silent, I keep hearing about Newmarket and Kent Escapes. Did they not bother doing any flights for Easter? When do they start? Are they planning to operate for just a couple of weeks in the Summer?
Kent Escapes have a full summer programme planed, but the summer charter season does not begin until May
Join Date: Mar 2006
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I came passed the airport this morning and lots going on, A passenger plane was loading at the terminal, a 747 in circuit, a cargo aircraft coming in and about a 12 small aircraft on a taxiway.
lots of cars about.
lots of cars about.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: MDH
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I have learnt to ignore people like you CATFLAPS! 
NOTE : Sunday was the wings 'n' wheels day at manston with "LIVE" passenger carrying DC3 flights all day, performed by classicflight (PM me for link).
Overall it was a succesful day as i was there to witness it!
NOTE : Sunday was the wings 'n' wheels day at manston with "LIVE" passenger carrying DC3 flights all day, performed by classicflight (PM me for link).
Overall it was a succesful day as i was there to witness it!
Join Date: Nov 2006
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weevhearditb4
Hanger 9
Personnel attacks are unwarranted in this instance as Catflaps is right on a number of aspects...such as the drainage and fuel tanks which pose a particular risk to Thanets underground water supply. No investment of a major nature has taken place at MSE only general maintenance such as any responsible owner would instigate nothing more.
Personnel attacks are unwarranted in this instance as Catflaps is right on a number of aspects...such as the drainage and fuel tanks which pose a particular risk to Thanets underground water supply. No investment of a major nature has taken place at MSE only general maintenance such as any responsible owner would instigate nothing more.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Thanet
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Manston is a lovely place for a bit of local aviation nostalgia.
It has a nice little museum, and occasional events like "Wings and Wheels" for nerds such as me.
But as far as entering the world of modern, competitive, commercial aviation goes - no chance I'm afraid.
It just loses money year on year.....
(BTW niknak - I have a hunch Infratil are losing rather more than £3m P.A. at MSE.
And catflaps - You are indeed generous when you estimate 100k pax this year - Capacity looks to be a mere 12 -15k return tickets for Newmarket and Kent Escapes (approx) - and events would suggest Kent Escapes have had problems selling all of theirs.)
It has a nice little museum, and occasional events like "Wings and Wheels" for nerds such as me.
But as far as entering the world of modern, competitive, commercial aviation goes - no chance I'm afraid.
It just loses money year on year.....
(BTW niknak - I have a hunch Infratil are losing rather more than £3m P.A. at MSE.
And catflaps - You are indeed generous when you estimate 100k pax this year - Capacity looks to be a mere 12 -15k return tickets for Newmarket and Kent Escapes (approx) - and events would suggest Kent Escapes have had problems selling all of theirs.)
Buzz off with BAF!!
Join Date: Nov 2004
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The last time I visited Manston was in the 1960s when it was littered with Invicta DC4s. Some even carrying pax.
It would appear from reading this thread that little has changed, just
that the DC4s have gone and nothing has taken their place.
Shame, but you can't buck the market.
It would appear from reading this thread that little has changed, just
that the DC4s have gone and nothing has taken their place.
Shame, but you can't buck the market.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Thanet
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A very great shame indeed.
Many of us hoped MSE would be the centre of regeneration for this area, but this is clearly not happening.
There are folk who have direct MSE-related interests who, understandably, get excited by each imaginary or real new activity (Cargolux being the latest), but it never amounts to anything significant.
What really matters now is -
A) A realistic aviation strategy for the south-east.
B) Employment.
Like it or not, this means we must now look to Lydd.
If MSE cannot attract enough business to form a regional base, we must hope that LYX can do so, and provide new jobs for the committed and professional team at Manston (a lousy commute for some, but better than the dole queue).
The big issue, of course, is this-
MSE is currently failing without competition from Lydd.
If Lydd is to have a chance, is it fair to expect it to develop with the reputation of MSE casting it's long shadow?
I have no idea if this airport can succeed or not, but it could certainly do without the albatross of Manston around it's neck.
Many of us hoped MSE would be the centre of regeneration for this area, but this is clearly not happening.
There are folk who have direct MSE-related interests who, understandably, get excited by each imaginary or real new activity (Cargolux being the latest), but it never amounts to anything significant.
What really matters now is -
A) A realistic aviation strategy for the south-east.
B) Employment.
Like it or not, this means we must now look to Lydd.
If MSE cannot attract enough business to form a regional base, we must hope that LYX can do so, and provide new jobs for the committed and professional team at Manston (a lousy commute for some, but better than the dole queue).
The big issue, of course, is this-
MSE is currently failing without competition from Lydd.
If Lydd is to have a chance, is it fair to expect it to develop with the reputation of MSE casting it's long shadow?
I have no idea if this airport can succeed or not, but it could certainly do without the albatross of Manston around it's neck.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: East Kent
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But with the environmental issues (ie local wildlife) and local objections ( as goes with most major projects I suppose), It appears that Lydd has still got quite a way to go for it's planed expansion. Whereas Manston is already off the starting blocks with regard to road access and terminal buildings, therefore little or no expansion would be required for passenger handleing in the short to medium term.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ramsgate, Kent
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It's hard to describe how quiet Manston has been for the last few weeks. Anyone who lives in the area will tell you that there has been virtually nothing apart from the training flights by Oasis, which have been irritating the locals in droves. Looks like the airport has died (a bit like this bulletin board). How much longer will Infratil put up with the losses they must be making on this venture?
They had a public referendum on Lydd a couple of weeks ago. Around 30% of people voted and they voted against expansion. I don't know whether this will carry any weight with the planners who are imminently due to make a decision on the proposed runway extension and new terminal plans. As I understand it, they can only reject things on planning grounds, and the owners at Lydd have provided all of the information required e.g. the environmental impact assessment, the economic impact report, risk assessment. None of these studies has uncovered any substantive reason not to permit expansion. The protesters now seem to be relying on arguments about the danger of a plane crashing into Dungeness nuclear power station. However, the power station was shut down last month and so this argument seems a bit thin (although it will take many years to decommission the reactor).
Interestingly, the vote in Lydd itself was very close with about 55% of people voting for expansion and 45% against. I think the airport plan has a lot of support in the immediate vicinity because of the employment it will create. It was New Romney where they voted overwhelmingly against expansion, with 23% for expansion and 77% against.
However, the thing that stuck out to me was that only 10,000 people were eligible to vote in this referendum. This shows how sparsely populated it is around Lydd. Only 2204 people voted against the expansion. Presumably, this is why the local MP is in favour of the project. He probably figures that most of those votes wouldn't have gone to him anyway, and he'll pick up votes from the majority of his constituents living further away who support the expansion plans. In my humble opinion, the referendum will make no difference. Lydd is still likely to get the green light. They're just waiting until the local elections are out of the way.
They had a public referendum on Lydd a couple of weeks ago. Around 30% of people voted and they voted against expansion. I don't know whether this will carry any weight with the planners who are imminently due to make a decision on the proposed runway extension and new terminal plans. As I understand it, they can only reject things on planning grounds, and the owners at Lydd have provided all of the information required e.g. the environmental impact assessment, the economic impact report, risk assessment. None of these studies has uncovered any substantive reason not to permit expansion. The protesters now seem to be relying on arguments about the danger of a plane crashing into Dungeness nuclear power station. However, the power station was shut down last month and so this argument seems a bit thin (although it will take many years to decommission the reactor).
Interestingly, the vote in Lydd itself was very close with about 55% of people voting for expansion and 45% against. I think the airport plan has a lot of support in the immediate vicinity because of the employment it will create. It was New Romney where they voted overwhelmingly against expansion, with 23% for expansion and 77% against.
However, the thing that stuck out to me was that only 10,000 people were eligible to vote in this referendum. This shows how sparsely populated it is around Lydd. Only 2204 people voted against the expansion. Presumably, this is why the local MP is in favour of the project. He probably figures that most of those votes wouldn't have gone to him anyway, and he'll pick up votes from the majority of his constituents living further away who support the expansion plans. In my humble opinion, the referendum will make no difference. Lydd is still likely to get the green light. They're just waiting until the local elections are out of the way.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Thanet
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blazing_air asks a fair question - "why hasn't this posting been moved to a Lydd thread ?"
It is probably fair to suggest that Manston's future does not lie at Manston itself.
Information about local operational details is of passing interest to all, but does not address the fundamental problems that MSE faces due to its relative location in the south-east aviation framework.
To put it simply, events at LGW, LHR, SEN, STN and LYX are more relevant to Manston's future than spurious rumours about Esperia at MSE, Bmed at MSE etc. etc.
For example, if - god forbid - a major terrorist attack destroyed LHR, Manston would suddenly become a major player in the south-east.
Fortunately this is more or less impossible, but illustrates that events outside Thanet are more important to MSE than (for example) news of a possible weekly drop from Cargolux.
Indeed, there is an argument that the Manston thread should be abandoned in favour of a "south-east regional aviation" thread.
In the meantime, I would request that the mods be indulgent of discussion about complementary or competing airports on this thread, as they are directly relevant to Manston's future.
PS - I see Hangar 9's abusive posting has now been removed.
Good.
It is probably fair to suggest that Manston's future does not lie at Manston itself.
Information about local operational details is of passing interest to all, but does not address the fundamental problems that MSE faces due to its relative location in the south-east aviation framework.
To put it simply, events at LGW, LHR, SEN, STN and LYX are more relevant to Manston's future than spurious rumours about Esperia at MSE, Bmed at MSE etc. etc.
For example, if - god forbid - a major terrorist attack destroyed LHR, Manston would suddenly become a major player in the south-east.
Fortunately this is more or less impossible, but illustrates that events outside Thanet are more important to MSE than (for example) news of a possible weekly drop from Cargolux.
Indeed, there is an argument that the Manston thread should be abandoned in favour of a "south-east regional aviation" thread.
In the meantime, I would request that the mods be indulgent of discussion about complementary or competing airports on this thread, as they are directly relevant to Manston's future.
PS - I see Hangar 9's abusive posting has now been removed.
Good.
Last edited by deedave; 15th Apr 2007 at 21:14.
Join Date: Feb 2007
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It's quite possible there isn't enough room for two "regional" airports in the area, even if one handled all the frieght and the other all the passengers. what do the punters want at the end of the day. Do they want local & convinient or somthing a bit further away.
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Indeed.
Shorthaul local pax may well devolve to SEN, LYX etc.
This phenomenon, coupled with increased capacity at all the London airports, plus environmental surcharges, will probably result in the major London venues making strenuous efforts to hold on to as much business as they can, including their freight business.
None of it good for poor old MSE.
Shorthaul local pax may well devolve to SEN, LYX etc.
This phenomenon, coupled with increased capacity at all the London airports, plus environmental surcharges, will probably result in the major London venues making strenuous efforts to hold on to as much business as they can, including their freight business.
None of it good for poor old MSE.