rolandpull

Amazing set of pics of the RAF display jet at Yeovilton today (Sat 8th July) with a serious engine fire on shut down..............
http://www.ukar.co.uk/cgi-bin/ukarbo...;&#entry234293

BEagle

I vaguely, vaguely recall tales of what happens to a Tornado engine if the electrical power is shut off before the engine has been shut down? Something about the engine slamming itself to max thrust, then destroying iself - because mechanical governors were deemed unnnecessary by 'them wot knew'?

Wan't an early Italian Tornado virtually destroyed when something similar happened?

I hasten to add these were tales remembered from some 15-ish years ago...

Ali Barber

"There will never be a situation when the aircraft is without electrical power" said the designers - unless you're a bit quick with the gen and batt switches when you shut down. Engine winds up looking for the governor to limit but, with zero volts, there is no limiter and the engine very very quickly placticises and pours itself out the back end! Good pics on that link.

Feck

There are also failure modes where it isn't the brave pilot chappie's fault...

Radar Muppet

Any chance of posting the pics here as I can't seem to get access to them?

Thanks

insty66

BEagle your memory is pretty good.


I suspect more than perhaps a simple fault.

Check the position/ angle of the nosewheel. That's not right!

Mandator

BEags is on the right track. A Tornado of 27 Squadron lunched both engines at Eggebeck approx September 1984; there may have been others on diferent squadrons/units. The 27 Sqn incident resulted from a crew-in snag on the CSAS and the usual trick was to trip and reset some circuit breakers in the front hatch. This has to be done by the groundcrew and a Luftwaffe techie set about the job. Unfortunately, as well as the CSAS CBs, he also tripped the MECU CBs (this was in the days before the Tornado had much in the way of computers and electronics). Lo and behold, both engines chucked the whirly-whirly metal bits all over Northern Germany. There was nothing the pilot could do about it. Naturally, the techie said he did'd do anything wrong and after a couple of weeks investigation and a double donk change she came back without any difficulty.
Looking at the nosewheel angle on the Yeovilton pic, I wonder if they had some sort of fault. If the crew had powered down before engine shut down presumably the nosewheel steering would have been inoperable, although it may have castored due to the assymetric thrust. I thought this problem would have been nailed by now.

Beeayeate

Ref nosewheel angle - could be pilot was trying to turn away from the Gnat and refueler. On another forum, witness said it seemed to just keep rolling after re-light.

Ghostflyer

XI(F) had a run to destruction in 1990 when the front seater depowered the DECU by switching the master switch off a bit quick. The back seater was Grumpy Bob and he was last seen diving into the cockpit to turn it back on. Made a hell of a bang.

But does it have to be a run to destruction? Why can't it just be a contained failure? It may have zippo to do with the electrics.

Ali Barber

The engine accelerates and, without electrics, there is no voltage to tell it that it has reached 100%, so it keeps accelerating. Apparently, it all happens in a VERY short space of time. Was an issue for total electrics failure I believe - had to get back on the ground before the battery ran out otherwise expect a sudden surge of power and then silence!

John Blakeley

We certainly had at least two incidents of this happening at the TTTE Cottesmore in the early days - the first time to the Senior German Officer who was shutting down in the correct order but quite quickly and as I recall he switched the battery master off with the engine LP cock still moving to the closed position. Fortunately the aircraft had brakes on and was fully chocked - which this one does not appear to be so if the engine did run away the brakes held well!

Wasn't there also a very early Marham accident where the crew suffered total electrical failure at night with the engines subsequently accelerating to destruction - perhaps somebody can remember the details - sadly I think the Nav was killed and the total failure was not explained in my time with Tornado - I do recall that after all night investigations on the Cottesmore simulator the only thing we could find that would do this was inadvertaent operation of the crash switch and the EA issued an STI to wire lock the switch. I had assumed that following our incidents and reports the DA would have looked at this area - perhaps they did but there was no money to modify the aircraft. If this was an engine runaway, and the pictures do not necessarily confirm this, it is amazing that the aircraft can suffer the same "expensive" problem 25 years on, and it sounds like there have been plenty more incidents in the meantime.

Tornado electrics were always interesting!

JB

Jobza Guddun

Mike / John,

I think you might be referring to the first RAF GR1 loss, the IX Sqn jet which went into Wolferton Marsh, near Sandringham, sadly with the loss of the pilot? I believe that was down to a total electrical failure, which would have caused engine runaway in those days?

IIRC, the GR4 has been modded in the last few years to prevent the same thing happening now, Can't remember the detail of it as I'm not an engine basher, but I'm sure a pilot will be able to clarify it.

Jobza

Roadster280

Gents, forgive my dull mind, it's early morning here.

I seem to be reading, that a consequence of total electrical failure is that the engines wind themselves up to destruction?

Bloody hell.

Dundiggin'

Tell you what........it was lucky the Puma aircrew witnessed the whole episode as the overworked and very willing VASU chaps rushed to the front end of the Tornado to look at the front wheel whilst the engine was burning out at the rear end!!
A timely shout of 'What about the fire at the backend!' got their priorities right! Otherwise we may all have been wearing the remains of the Tornado and a very nice Folland Gnat!!

The nose wheels had been chocked but overan them with the excessive power and then appeared to be forced/castered to the right which prevented the inevitable from happening.....the aircrew looked shocked and who wouldn't (!) But at least they are now current with their egress drills!.....every cloud.........

Well done lads.....eventually.......

John Blakeley

Jobza,
Thanks for the clarification re the Marham accident - I knew that, sadly, one of the crew had been killed. It is good to hear that something was done for the GR4, but given Dundiggin's clarification it sounds like there may be current "electrical" failures which will still let an engine accelerate to destruction - not a design feature that figures on most aeronautical engineering courses - glad it does not happen in the new all electric cars - or perhaps someone out there knows that it does!
JB

L J R

After a nice day in the West counrty, I guess they will do anything not to go back to deepest darkest Norfolk!

L Peacock

Couple of mods came along a few years back: one to interlock the crash switch & generators and one to interlock the HP cocks and batt master.
Absolute deterimation or an unforseen fault can still result in runaway though.

I imagine the engine control design seemed like a good idea at the time.

bowly

Roadster,

The EPS (Emergency Power Supply) will fire in that situation and provide power for a short period. Enough time, in fact, to tighten your straps. Only then will the engines accelerate to warp factor snot!

Ghostflyer

The battery lasts for 15mins min. Stopped a JMC, by bleating knock it off once, when both Gennys tripped off line. Hauled ass to Lossie and shutdown 10 mins later without incident.

Its a long while since I flew the jet but wasn't the EPS for the hydraulics?

maxburner

Yes, the EPS as in the Ram Air Turbine is for hydraulics. The GR4 also has a one shot battery for the total electrics situation.