Cost of an ND?
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Cost of an ND?
From Today's NZ Herald:
What does it say about arming senior officers?
Where was his 'bearer' who should have been carrying it for him?
$1600 fine for Navy captain
29.03.06 7.00am
A Royal New Zealand Navy captain was fined $1600 at a court-martial at Trentham Military Camp yesterday for accidentally firing his rifle during a training drill in Afghanistan last month.
Gordon Ross Smith, 48, pleaded guilty to prejudicing service discipline after accidentally firing his Steyr rifle into the ground several metres in front of him.
What would the approximate cost be here ($NZ1600 is about £600)?29.03.06 7.00am
A Royal New Zealand Navy captain was fined $1600 at a court-martial at Trentham Military Camp yesterday for accidentally firing his rifle during a training drill in Afghanistan last month.
Gordon Ross Smith, 48, pleaded guilty to prejudicing service discipline after accidentally firing his Steyr rifle into the ground several metres in front of him.
What does it say about arming senior officers?
Where was his 'bearer' who should have been carrying it for him?
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Court martial for a nd? Bit of overkill isn't it? In my time (NI 90s RAF) it was a police report, chat with the staish and a donation of a month's pay to a Force's welfare charity fund of some sort. And a crappy ACR next time round.
A RNZN Captain!?!?
Given the size of such a force, surely he is the most senior officer in the whole NZ navy and could preside at his own court-martial.
(Or has Helen the Lesbian binned the navy yet?)
Given the size of such a force, surely he is the most senior officer in the whole NZ navy and could preside at his own court-martial.
(Or has Helen the Lesbian binned the navy yet?)
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I find it very odd that such a senior officer had a ND. The RAF, for example, have decided our Wg Cdrs and above are so naturally gifted in all areas of life that they don't need to do annual CCS like everyone else.
The presumption would seem to be that they have better things to do, which is somewhat annoying...
The presumption would seem to be that they have better things to do, which is somewhat annoying...
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ND
I am ashamed to say that as a Capt I had my only ND. A soldier asked me to hold her weapon for a few minutes and passed it to me, I bollocked her for not clearing it first, showed her how to do it, pointed it at the ground, pulled the trigger - BANG (a blank round fortunately). In the adjacent line of open 4 tonne trucks the heads of the whole embussed battalion turned and looked at the smoking gun....
Two weeks later I made Major.
The General was very understanding about weeks without significant sleep on exercise and the months of irregular hours on operations before that. However...
Retired and years later, I now fly Vigies which only go bang from the engine.
Two weeks later I made Major.
The General was very understanding about weeks without significant sleep on exercise and the months of irregular hours on operations before that. However...
Retired and years later, I now fly Vigies which only go bang from the engine.
Gentleman Aviator
Always used to be a month's pay in NI...
... I recall one occasion when a Rock patrol had an ND, with which SAC X managed to scratch the upper arm of Cpl Y his brick commander.
They both got done a month's pay, as the Cpl should have been supervising ....
.... but Cpls get paid more than SACs, so Cpl Y gets a bigger fine as well as a hole in his arm (nearly) ... oh how we laughed....
... I recall one occasion when a Rock patrol had an ND, with which SAC X managed to scratch the upper arm of Cpl Y his brick commander.
They both got done a month's pay, as the Cpl should have been supervising ....
.... but Cpls get paid more than SACs, so Cpl Y gets a bigger fine as well as a hole in his arm (nearly) ... oh how we laughed....
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A simple lesson...........forget NSP's etc, don't touch the working parts and the feckin thing CANNOT go bang......end of lesson
All spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
All spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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ABIW...Somewhat simplistic view.
How does one check that it is clear without touching the working parts? Assumption that it is clear is the ONLY reason people have NDs if they intentionally pull the trigger, because they ASSUME it is clear when squeezing off the action.
Making sure the chamber is clear first (by feel if necessary) is the ONLY way to avoid an ND if one chooses to pull the trigger, having pulled the working parts to the rear.
Of course there are other types of ND, such as loaded, cocked firearm, safety catch gets knocked (difficult I know) off, then rifle etc is accidentally knocked, dropped etc and it goes bang. As does one's salary.
Going back to the Rock Cpl, why did he get bounced? Unless the SAC was at an unloading bay etc, the Cpl can't supervise his entire section's weapon handling drills on the streets.
Do you chaps ever have NDs with bombs, rockets, cannon and missiles? I imagine it's a little more serious than the odd 5.56 round. How much does that cost????
How does one check that it is clear without touching the working parts? Assumption that it is clear is the ONLY reason people have NDs if they intentionally pull the trigger, because they ASSUME it is clear when squeezing off the action.
Making sure the chamber is clear first (by feel if necessary) is the ONLY way to avoid an ND if one chooses to pull the trigger, having pulled the working parts to the rear.
Of course there are other types of ND, such as loaded, cocked firearm, safety catch gets knocked (difficult I know) off, then rifle etc is accidentally knocked, dropped etc and it goes bang. As does one's salary.
Going back to the Rock Cpl, why did he get bounced? Unless the SAC was at an unloading bay etc, the Cpl can't supervise his entire section's weapon handling drills on the streets.
Do you chaps ever have NDs with bombs, rockets, cannon and missiles? I imagine it's a little more serious than the odd 5.56 round. How much does that cost????
How about the Jaguar shot down by a Phantom in Germany? 
What are the facts behind that accident? Google seems to throw up a plethora of useless facts...none of which relate to this incident.
A few beers must have been owed that night in the bar!
===============
Edited to add: As I am unaware of the facts I apologize in advance if this turned out to be a fatal accident.
TF
What are the facts behind that accident? Google seems to throw up a plethora of useless facts...none of which relate to this incident.
A few beers must have been owed that night in the bar!
===============
Edited to add: As I am unaware of the facts I apologize in advance if this turned out to be a fatal accident.
TF
Gentleman Aviator
Roadster It was indeed at the unloading bay....
..... and for Time Flies, no fatalities in the Toom/Jag incident; never mind Google, there have been threads on it here and/or in AH&N, so a search here might work.
Edited to add: some more details, I'd forgotten it was Falklands time:
On 25 May 82 a 92 Sqn RAF Phantom FGR.2 (XV422) using AIM-9L (?) shot down a Jaguar GR.MK.1 (XX963) about 35nm NE of Brüggen. Can't remember the Jag Sqn
Phantom crew (all this is in public domain) was Roy Lawrence and Alastair Iverarity, Jag mate was Steve Griggs, who banged out at least one more time after that ......
..... and for Time Flies, no fatalities in the Toom/Jag incident; never mind Google, there have been threads on it here and/or in AH&N, so a search here might work.
Edited to add: some more details, I'd forgotten it was Falklands time:
On 25 May 82 a 92 Sqn RAF Phantom FGR.2 (XV422) using AIM-9L (?) shot down a Jaguar GR.MK.1 (XX963) about 35nm NE of Brüggen. Can't remember the Jag Sqn
Phantom crew (all this is in public domain) was Roy Lawrence and Alastair Iverarity, Jag mate was Steve Griggs, who banged out at least one more time after that ......
Last edited by teeteringhead; 29th Mar 2006 at 12:05.
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The RAF, for example, have decided our Wg Cdrs and above are so naturally gifted in all areas of life that they don't need to do annual CCS like everyone else
Dallas - slightly off topic I know but I just did CCS at a HQ in the Chilterns and there were 2 Gp Capts and a shed load of Wg Cdrs present. I think one of the AOCs (how many are there this week) had decreed that ALL his staff would do GDT
Dallas - slightly off topic I know but I just did CCS at a HQ in the Chilterns and there were 2 Gp Capts and a shed load of Wg Cdrs present. I think one of the AOCs (how many are there this week) had decreed that ALL his staff would do GDT
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I personaly know of a British Army captain who was fined £1600 last year for a 5.56mm ND on a range in the UK.
I doubt he'll ever have another ND.
I doubt he'll ever have another ND.
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Originally Posted by southside
....
....whats a rifle ?
....whats a rifle ?
Hope this answers your question.
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In GW1 an RAF Doc had an ND. I thought they always carried bandages and plasters in their holsters! Quite a hefty fine I believe.
As for the shooting down of the Jag, John Smith (former Labour Leader) I am reliably informed was the defending lawyer at the Courts Martial, but didn't get them off. T'was many a long year before the pilot involved ever flew a live armed aircraft again (spent most of his time on OCUs as a QFI). When I was in MOD I authorised an extra missile so that he could have one on the OCU QWI's MPC, but on the strict understanding that everyone else but the target was behind him at all times (lol). He (and his nav) was a nice bloke and there was a good reason why the original incident happened (pressures of exercise, Taceval inject changing exercise procedures, crew end up scrambled in a jet they thought was armed with training/acquisition missiles instead of live armed, nobody believing them on the radio when they said they had shot an aircraft down, instructions to return to CAP, nobody believing them on the radio when they called taxying in with one less missile than they'd taken off with, etc).
As for the shooting down of the Jag, John Smith (former Labour Leader) I am reliably informed was the defending lawyer at the Courts Martial, but didn't get them off. T'was many a long year before the pilot involved ever flew a live armed aircraft again (spent most of his time on OCUs as a QFI). When I was in MOD I authorised an extra missile so that he could have one on the OCU QWI's MPC, but on the strict understanding that everyone else but the target was behind him at all times (lol). He (and his nav) was a nice bloke and there was a good reason why the original incident happened (pressures of exercise, Taceval inject changing exercise procedures, crew end up scrambled in a jet they thought was armed with training/acquisition missiles instead of live armed, nobody believing them on the radio when they said they had shot an aircraft down, instructions to return to CAP, nobody believing them on the radio when they called taxying in with one less missile than they'd taken off with, etc).
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A Sayers
I suspect had she held your weapon for only a few minutes, you might have gone "bang" as well until you had a gas leakage - and she then had to pull or stroke it clear with a piece of 4"x2" (tissue)
Any chance of getting on this course?
I suspect had she held your weapon for only a few minutes, you might have gone "bang" as well until you had a gas leakage - and she then had to pull or stroke it clear with a piece of 4"x2" (tissue)
Any chance of getting on this course?
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Originally Posted by Flarkey
I personaly know of a British Army captain who was fined £1600 last year for a 5.56mm ND on a range in the UK.
I doubt he'll ever have another ND.
I doubt he'll ever have another ND.
John
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chap i knew had an ND whilst doing gate gaurd at honington in about 1990, his exscuse was that he wasn't used to the new fangled plastic pop gun. he was fined something like £6-800 for the privelige.