Orient Thai
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Orient Thai
Orient Thai Airlines is hiring again. Before you pack up and move to Thailand, here are a few things to think about. Conditions are getting worse and the conditions you join under will not be the ones that you work under. There is no contract for foreigners at Orient Thai, and the conditions change at the whim of the owner. There is no legal fallback. If you don't like the way things change, your only option is to leave. I don’t expect you to take my word here on Pprune, but this information will allow you to ask the questions that you need to ask the DFO or Fleet Manager before packing up and moving over there.
First lets talk about the pay. You will be told that you will be paid $6000 / month, minus $500 / month temporary pay reduction - ie $5500. That is true for right now, but another $500 pay cut will happen soon. OX management recently put an advertisement on Climbto350 for pilots at a pay scale of $5000 a month. Once there are enough pilots, your pay will be cut again.
OX has been on 2 previous hiring sprees in the past few months. Both times several pilots were told they had a job there, and at the last minute thier jobs were canceled. Leaving them without a job or a house. The second time was when an airline in the US that was flying 757s and MD80's went under and K Udom thought that these guys would be desperate for jobs. The pilots that were already told that they had jobs with OX (that had quit their other jobs and rented out their houses) were told not to come, and the ad was put in Climbto350 targeting those pilots (only one showed up).
‘Pilot Pay and Working Conditions’ Document: Here are some examples of what the management thinks of the Pilot Pay and Working Conditions Document:
- The probation period does not end in 6 months. People have been ‘let go’ after 18 months. There is always another excuse but the people that go are coincidently the ones that have crew duty or other safety related concerns.
- You will not be paid on “the 4th day of the month”. You might be paid, if you are going to be paid, by the 9th. Every month there seems to be someone who does not get paid and who has to go, cap in hand, to Namphon to ask to be paid. Namphon blames someone else (even though she is in charge of pay) and takes her time fixing it. They generally get it by the end of the month.
- Noone has ever been paid the $100 per day “extra duty” pay for working more then 17 days a month. Everybody has done it in the last few months, but I don’t know of anyone who was paid it – and I asked around.
- “Extended Duty Tail-End Deadhead Option” – first of all, it is not an option. They don’t have enough crews for anyone to refuse it, so you will take it. Secondly, you will have to fight for the money.
- “Definition of Duty Days” – Please amend this section of your document to read “How long you have to fly to get the job done, because they don’t have enough crews to work within the already large limits.”
- Yearly “Bonus Scheme” – has never been paid. I don’t know anyone who was ever paid this money – including people who were there for close to two years, and dozens who were there over a year.
- Working Permits and Taxes – The company may, at its random discretion, organize a work permit for you. Some people got them, some didn’t. If you work there without one, well, it depends on who is bribing who as to what happens to you. Taxes – No pilots have paid any taxes, but you will be asked to give banking details of at least two different banks (one has to be outside Thailand) because the company only declares half your income to the tax office.
- Yes you do get some kind of medical coverage, but not for your spouse. You would have to go to the "HR department”, and there isn't one.
- “Travel Privileges” – I haven’t heard anything recently, but a few months ago there was a big deal where pilots wanted to take their wifes with them on domestic overnights. Dealing with Namphon to buy the standby tickets is so unpleasant that the pilots would just buy the full fare tickets. A Captian tried to buy a ticket for his wife to travel on the same flight as him and they wouldn't sell it to him. They told him that the flight was oversold. He operated that flight 2 hours later and there were 160 people on a 220 seat aircraft. The ticket agents wanted Namphons approval to sell him the full fare ticket (the CP sent out an email to all piolts saying that if we are wanting to buy a full fare ticket on OX for our spouse, do so out of uniform so as not to cuase confusion. This is ‘travel Privileges’ with OX - i.e. to travel on this airline you have to sneak in and pretend that you aren't a pilot). I personally know three pilots who flew their wives to Phuket on other airlines at full fare rather than deal with OX.
- Sick Policy – I have seen 3 pilots that have required longer term sick leave. All 3 only got it after direct intervention of the fleet manager. If left to OX, they would not have got paid. Those managers have since been asked to leave.
- Leave – 21 days sounds good, but know that there is no ‘days before’ or ‘days after’. If you take 10 days, you have to be back after 10 days. No matching it up with days off.
- The only part of this document that you can count on is the bonds – they will deduct these from your pay. When you have fulfilled the obligations for getting them back, it will be up to you to fight for them.
Here are some other things to think about before joining:
- You do not get a roster – A roster is published at (or near) the start of the the month, but is changed on a daily basis and you (might be) phoned the night before to be advised of changes. You can not plan your days off, because your days off will be changed. Not may be changed, WILL be changed. Sometimes with less then a days notice. The only time that you can leave the country is the 21 days annual leave, You will be fighting for 3 days to go down to Phuket.
- You can be fired at any time, even when on leave. There are examples of pilots that went home on leave and were called and told they don’t need to come back – no notice.
- Conditions of employment can and will be changed at the whim of management. For example, in February of this year, when they were short of pilots, it was declared that all leave had to be taken in the year that it was accrued. Some pilots lost 14 days of leave they had accurued in 2004. It was cheaper than hireing another pilot.
- There is continual indirect pressure to get the job done. You, as pilots, know what this can mean regarding maintenance and duty limits.
- Maintenaance: It is getting worse.
The MD 80 fleet has less than 2 crews per aircraft. They are flying 14 hour duty days. 6 sector a day in an aircraft with virtually no air conditioning when it is on the ground. Night flying is split shifts – often back to back.
B757 fleet is better manned than that, but still far under what is necessary for the job. Luckily for the crews, it is very rare that all three aircraft are operating at the same time.
B747 fleet has always been the hardest working crews. They fly unbelievable hours and days. I believe that many are still on unpaid leave, because during slow times, pilots are put on unpaid leave so as to reduce the cost of having pilots. During busy times, these guys fly triple figures month after month, if the flying drops off they are assigned unpaid leave while the remaining pilots continue to fly triple figures. I believe that they are averaging 5 days unpaid leave a month right now.
First lets talk about the pay. You will be told that you will be paid $6000 / month, minus $500 / month temporary pay reduction - ie $5500. That is true for right now, but another $500 pay cut will happen soon. OX management recently put an advertisement on Climbto350 for pilots at a pay scale of $5000 a month. Once there are enough pilots, your pay will be cut again.
OX has been on 2 previous hiring sprees in the past few months. Both times several pilots were told they had a job there, and at the last minute thier jobs were canceled. Leaving them without a job or a house. The second time was when an airline in the US that was flying 757s and MD80's went under and K Udom thought that these guys would be desperate for jobs. The pilots that were already told that they had jobs with OX (that had quit their other jobs and rented out their houses) were told not to come, and the ad was put in Climbto350 targeting those pilots (only one showed up).
‘Pilot Pay and Working Conditions’ Document: Here are some examples of what the management thinks of the Pilot Pay and Working Conditions Document:
- The probation period does not end in 6 months. People have been ‘let go’ after 18 months. There is always another excuse but the people that go are coincidently the ones that have crew duty or other safety related concerns.
- You will not be paid on “the 4th day of the month”. You might be paid, if you are going to be paid, by the 9th. Every month there seems to be someone who does not get paid and who has to go, cap in hand, to Namphon to ask to be paid. Namphon blames someone else (even though she is in charge of pay) and takes her time fixing it. They generally get it by the end of the month.
- Noone has ever been paid the $100 per day “extra duty” pay for working more then 17 days a month. Everybody has done it in the last few months, but I don’t know of anyone who was paid it – and I asked around.
- “Extended Duty Tail-End Deadhead Option” – first of all, it is not an option. They don’t have enough crews for anyone to refuse it, so you will take it. Secondly, you will have to fight for the money.
- “Definition of Duty Days” – Please amend this section of your document to read “How long you have to fly to get the job done, because they don’t have enough crews to work within the already large limits.”
- Yearly “Bonus Scheme” – has never been paid. I don’t know anyone who was ever paid this money – including people who were there for close to two years, and dozens who were there over a year.
- Working Permits and Taxes – The company may, at its random discretion, organize a work permit for you. Some people got them, some didn’t. If you work there without one, well, it depends on who is bribing who as to what happens to you. Taxes – No pilots have paid any taxes, but you will be asked to give banking details of at least two different banks (one has to be outside Thailand) because the company only declares half your income to the tax office.
- Yes you do get some kind of medical coverage, but not for your spouse. You would have to go to the "HR department”, and there isn't one.
- “Travel Privileges” – I haven’t heard anything recently, but a few months ago there was a big deal where pilots wanted to take their wifes with them on domestic overnights. Dealing with Namphon to buy the standby tickets is so unpleasant that the pilots would just buy the full fare tickets. A Captian tried to buy a ticket for his wife to travel on the same flight as him and they wouldn't sell it to him. They told him that the flight was oversold. He operated that flight 2 hours later and there were 160 people on a 220 seat aircraft. The ticket agents wanted Namphons approval to sell him the full fare ticket (the CP sent out an email to all piolts saying that if we are wanting to buy a full fare ticket on OX for our spouse, do so out of uniform so as not to cuase confusion. This is ‘travel Privileges’ with OX - i.e. to travel on this airline you have to sneak in and pretend that you aren't a pilot). I personally know three pilots who flew their wives to Phuket on other airlines at full fare rather than deal with OX.
- Sick Policy – I have seen 3 pilots that have required longer term sick leave. All 3 only got it after direct intervention of the fleet manager. If left to OX, they would not have got paid. Those managers have since been asked to leave.
- Leave – 21 days sounds good, but know that there is no ‘days before’ or ‘days after’. If you take 10 days, you have to be back after 10 days. No matching it up with days off.
- The only part of this document that you can count on is the bonds – they will deduct these from your pay. When you have fulfilled the obligations for getting them back, it will be up to you to fight for them.
Here are some other things to think about before joining:
- You do not get a roster – A roster is published at (or near) the start of the the month, but is changed on a daily basis and you (might be) phoned the night before to be advised of changes. You can not plan your days off, because your days off will be changed. Not may be changed, WILL be changed. Sometimes with less then a days notice. The only time that you can leave the country is the 21 days annual leave, You will be fighting for 3 days to go down to Phuket.
- You can be fired at any time, even when on leave. There are examples of pilots that went home on leave and were called and told they don’t need to come back – no notice.
- Conditions of employment can and will be changed at the whim of management. For example, in February of this year, when they were short of pilots, it was declared that all leave had to be taken in the year that it was accrued. Some pilots lost 14 days of leave they had accurued in 2004. It was cheaper than hireing another pilot.
- There is continual indirect pressure to get the job done. You, as pilots, know what this can mean regarding maintenance and duty limits.
- Maintenaance: It is getting worse.
The MD 80 fleet has less than 2 crews per aircraft. They are flying 14 hour duty days. 6 sector a day in an aircraft with virtually no air conditioning when it is on the ground. Night flying is split shifts – often back to back.
B757 fleet is better manned than that, but still far under what is necessary for the job. Luckily for the crews, it is very rare that all three aircraft are operating at the same time.
B747 fleet has always been the hardest working crews. They fly unbelievable hours and days. I believe that many are still on unpaid leave, because during slow times, pilots are put on unpaid leave so as to reduce the cost of having pilots. During busy times, these guys fly triple figures month after month, if the flying drops off they are assigned unpaid leave while the remaining pilots continue to fly triple figures. I believe that they are averaging 5 days unpaid leave a month right now.
Join Date: Nov 2001
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stupid white man
hey guys
if that report turns concerning ox i can only say , its your own fault.
days of can never be touched, and so on and on.,
who ever works under this conditions is not worth to be a pilot, who supid are this guys.
just anohter commander out of work ,
but happy
if that report turns concerning ox i can only say , its your own fault.
days of can never be touched, and so on and on.,
who ever works under this conditions is not worth to be a pilot, who supid are this guys.
just anohter commander out of work ,
but happy
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Hmmm, it would appear that about the only times Udom did not have the upper hand was...
When his first AOC was cancelled by the Thai authorties due to safety concerns and, when our company went to BKK and repossessed a TriStar right out from under his nose, and there was absolutely nothing he could do about it.
The story above by exOX has been part and parcel of Udom's operations from day one, and pilots are surely advised to look carefully before jumping in with both feet.
I still remember the look on his face when we took his airplane, and he was so angry he couldn't speak.
Served him right.
When his first AOC was cancelled by the Thai authorties due to safety concerns and, when our company went to BKK and repossessed a TriStar right out from under his nose, and there was absolutely nothing he could do about it.
The story above by exOX has been part and parcel of Udom's operations from day one, and pilots are surely advised to look carefully before jumping in with both feet.
I still remember the look on his face when we took his airplane, and he was so angry he couldn't speak.
Served him right.
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Examples....i could go on and on!
Maintenance not speaking english and not being qualified on aircraft they are working on, when confronted they soon disappear. Staight up lying to pilots about what work has been done on aircraft, Signing aircraft off having done no rectification work at all. Pilots being induced to fly without MEL items and often with no-go items. Maintenance claiming a complete instument failure after take off into imc was 'normal' because it had happened twice before! Being rostered over FTL's. Short of crews. Being advised of pay cuts a month after they occur. Pay deals entirely different to signed contract. No recourse for pilots leagally within thailand.
No formal rest days. Simply receive rosta on a daily basis so not possible to plan any days off or to use them. Often 2 or 3 rosta changes in a single day. Pilots arriving for work as scheduled to be told their flights are cancelled and 'were you not notified'? If you ever get a standby day and it's not used it becomes your day off. Seemingly random pay deductions at will which are easier to simply accept than attempt to rectify.
No work permits potentially risking chances of employment with any good company if discovered. A thai visa....may happen sometime, if your very lucky. Your not legally in thailand so they don't have to declare your income...or pay tax on it.
In short this company is very much illegal and increasingly dangerous. My advice to anyone considering employment here is to think again.
Maintenance not speaking english and not being qualified on aircraft they are working on, when confronted they soon disappear. Staight up lying to pilots about what work has been done on aircraft, Signing aircraft off having done no rectification work at all. Pilots being induced to fly without MEL items and often with no-go items. Maintenance claiming a complete instument failure after take off into imc was 'normal' because it had happened twice before! Being rostered over FTL's. Short of crews. Being advised of pay cuts a month after they occur. Pay deals entirely different to signed contract. No recourse for pilots leagally within thailand.
No formal rest days. Simply receive rosta on a daily basis so not possible to plan any days off or to use them. Often 2 or 3 rosta changes in a single day. Pilots arriving for work as scheduled to be told their flights are cancelled and 'were you not notified'? If you ever get a standby day and it's not used it becomes your day off. Seemingly random pay deductions at will which are easier to simply accept than attempt to rectify.
No work permits potentially risking chances of employment with any good company if discovered. A thai visa....may happen sometime, if your very lucky. Your not legally in thailand so they don't have to declare your income...or pay tax on it.
In short this company is very much illegal and increasingly dangerous. My advice to anyone considering employment here is to think again.
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Thank you so much for the heads-up. I am finishing my MD-80 rating at the moment and have been looking at OX since I have family in Thailand.
Now I will pass for sure and stay in Europe...
Horrible! Hope they will be closed down!
Now I will pass for sure and stay in Europe...
Horrible! Hope they will be closed down!
pilot11,
As every coin has two sides, perhaps you might consider OT as a place to get some MD80 time. I don't know what your circumstances are, but if you need time, maybe going to OT for a while would be a good thing. If you are young, single, and willing to take a beating for a period of time, go there take it as long as you can and leave. Udom can't expect any long-term loyalty from his pilots so you don't have to feel bad about leaving after a short stay.
You are in MD80 school so I assume you have a reason to have chosen this airplane. There are a limited number of places to fly it. If you are low time, take OT if they will give you a job and use it as a stepping stone.
I wish you good fortune. I spent a large part of my career flying the MD80 and loved it...and miss it now. I'm afraid it's becoming a 3rd world airplane so that's where you'll find opportunities to fly it.
As every coin has two sides, perhaps you might consider OT as a place to get some MD80 time. I don't know what your circumstances are, but if you need time, maybe going to OT for a while would be a good thing. If you are young, single, and willing to take a beating for a period of time, go there take it as long as you can and leave. Udom can't expect any long-term loyalty from his pilots so you don't have to feel bad about leaving after a short stay.
You are in MD80 school so I assume you have a reason to have chosen this airplane. There are a limited number of places to fly it. If you are low time, take OT if they will give you a job and use it as a stepping stone.
I wish you good fortune. I spent a large part of my career flying the MD80 and loved it...and miss it now. I'm afraid it's becoming a 3rd world airplane so that's where you'll find opportunities to fly it.
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From an inside point of view i would not even contemplate these guys for building hours.
Md80 fleet has been through 2 DFO's and 2 chief pilots in last few months alone, that should tell you something! I hear those guys offered and signed a contract with a guy who, on that basis went and paid for a rating, relocated here only to be told they no longer took guys with low hours. Thats how these guys do business on a regular basis.
Md80 fleet has been through 2 DFO's and 2 chief pilots in last few months alone, that should tell you something! I hear those guys offered and signed a contract with a guy who, on that basis went and paid for a rating, relocated here only to be told they no longer took guys with low hours. Thats how these guys do business on a regular basis.
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well, most of the crew have been recruited here under different management. Recently they have gone through 2 dfo's. I understand 2 md80 chief pilots since beginning that operation in august/sept with nobody appointed to that post at present time for over a month. I understand more departures are imminent....... I know many of the present staff are looking to leave asap.
orient,
Well, I suppose all some management types respond to is the complete inability to move the airplanes. Perhaps a mass exodus of MD80 crews would get Udom's attention and convince him to correct his methods ?
It's all quite a shame. I've looked at the company as well as one can from far away and have decided not to attempt getting a job there.
Well, I suppose all some management types respond to is the complete inability to move the airplanes. Perhaps a mass exodus of MD80 crews would get Udom's attention and convince him to correct his methods ?
It's all quite a shame. I've looked at the company as well as one can from far away and have decided not to attempt getting a job there.
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Went there got what I needed had a blast and bailed.
Now in a left seat on a whale for a 121 carrier making six figures income...
Make your own decision. What works for you might not work for others and vice versa.
Some guys like to party and others are just slam clickers. Life is full of mistakes but no regrets.
Cheers
Now in a left seat on a whale for a 121 carrier making six figures income...
Make your own decision. What works for you might not work for others and vice versa.
Some guys like to party and others are just slam clickers. Life is full of mistakes but no regrets.
Cheers
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I agree, it is a shame. Thailand is potentially a good fun place to live and the airline market here is doing really well, orient thai is in a prime position to capitalise on this along with several other carriers but seems to be going downhill fast rather than trying to improve.....
N4790P
<<Thailand is potentially a good fun place to live and the airline market here is doing really well>>
Do you really believe “the airline market here is doing really well”? Apart from Thai Air Asia who have political protection, (how else could a foreign registered aircraft flown by foreign licensed crews operating an external flight number operate a Thai internal flight?) who else is doing really well? TG are having an awful time with yields down, prime routes/slots being xferred to Thai Air Asia etc, Vikrom’s airlines collapsed, BKP have had better years and the saga over VTBS is costing everyone dearly.
I do agree however it's a fun place to live
Do you really believe “the airline market here is doing really well”? Apart from Thai Air Asia who have political protection, (how else could a foreign registered aircraft flown by foreign licensed crews operating an external flight number operate a Thai internal flight?) who else is doing really well? TG are having an awful time with yields down, prime routes/slots being xferred to Thai Air Asia etc, Vikrom’s airlines collapsed, BKP have had better years and the saga over VTBS is costing everyone dearly.
I do agree however it's a fun place to live
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Thoroughly agree with Taikonaut.
Arrived on Udom's door in his Kampuchea Airline days and stayed with OX through two acft types [L1011 & B747] before leaving for personal reasons - not associated with the company.
Arrived with a "bare bones rating" - put up with the s
t, (and there was a lot of it) and was able to moved on when required to do so.
Can honestly say, "thank you Udom".
Its not rocket science gentlemen. Knowing the "rules of the game" is the key.
Good luck to all
FO Coke
Arrived on Udom's door in his Kampuchea Airline days and stayed with OX through two acft types [L1011 & B747] before leaving for personal reasons - not associated with the company.
Arrived with a "bare bones rating" - put up with the s
t, (and there was a lot of it) and was able to moved on when required to do so.Can honestly say, "thank you Udom".
Its not rocket science gentlemen. Knowing the "rules of the game" is the key.
Good luck to all
FO Coke
