Go Smoke

*RANT ON*

I was duty instructor at Weston On The Green (D129), Oxford Gliding Club on Sunday.

We had four zone busts that day by GA aircraft.

One or two a day is usual.

The first was a Pitts or Christen Eagle (sorry, not a spotter) heading South to North at approx 1500' QFE. Straight through the centre.

This was as a two seat training glider was commencing a winch launch.

If the Pitts/CE had been 30 seconds later he would have collected 1,500' of multi strand steel cable, a two seat glider and a two ton winch. I'm sure I don't need to elaborate on the possible consequences.

"To the Pitts pilot, if he should happen to read this forum" - we did not manage to get your registration so you can probably breath a big sigh.

The second zone bust was a Jodel. Again heading South to North at about 2,000' QFE.
As he merrily chugged his way over the Northern airfield boundary he would have been oblivious to the nine square parachute canopies blossoming in his wake.
A few seconds later and it wouldn't of only been his day that he ruined but also some other poor unfortunate.

"To the Jodel pilot, if he should happen to read this forum" - I believe the jump aircraft tried to get your registration, not sure if they did or not, but I wouldn't breath too easily for a couple of weeks mate.

I did not see the other two as I was in the air at the time so cannot comment further other than to say:

"You may not value yours or your passengers lives, I may not value your life either but I sure do value mine and the lives of my flying buddies and those under my charge.
I cannot over emphasise how dangerous it is to fly through D129 - please don't.
If you know who you are then maybe you need to have a little sit down in a quiet room and ponder your actions for a moment.
You may then like to have a little chat with your CFI.
Certainly you may like to ground yourself until you've had a little refresher flight with him.
You know it's the responsible thing to do?"

Go Smoke

*RANT OFF*

turniphead

Enjoy your rant.

You are most fortunate in being a Civilian Gliding Club operating there. Note 1 on the 1/2 mil makes it clear that it is primarily a mil para drop zone. We all know most mil activity stops on a fri afternoon. Your Oxford club must be the only club to have the full protection of a danger area. You are so lucky. All other Glider sites have no such protection.
Also be reminded that the CAA have taken action in the past against self appointed 'police' pilots for unauthorised formation flying and endangering other aircraft by flying too close in an attempt to obtain registrations. You should know better than go gallivanting around the sky collecting reg letters.

BEagle

GoSmoke - Might I suggest that you copy your post to David Cockburn at the CAA? He is always interested in such safety related matters for his flight safety road shows.

tuniphead, D129 is active H24. Whether that's with military parachuting 100% of the time, or military parachuting 20%, gliding 80% doesn't matter. Unless you received DAAIS from Brize Radar stating that it is not active, you must assume that it is.

Illegal formation is indeed very dangerous; however, to get close enough to an infringer to note type of a/c, colour etc may be sufficient if corroborated with the relevant ATC radar tapes to track the offender to point of arrival. The CAA's enforcement branch take a very dim view of Danger Area infringements.

Go Smoke

Oh well, that's alright then. Getting killed by a negligent pilot is ok on a weekend but a problem on weekdays.

Sheesh, "we all know most mil activity stops on a fri afternoon"

There is dropping at Weston 7 days a week at all hours.

Mil drops aren't just kicking squaddies out the side of a herc (and yes, they do do it on a weekend).
You also get special forces at all hours on any day of the week.
You also have the sport parachute association who drop at any time during daylight hours on any day of the week.

I'd say you're making deadly assumtions turniphead (did you give yourself that name?)- I figure you're only a temporary citizen with a nice healthy attitude like that - problem is who you take with you. Sincerely hope it's not me.

Thankfully our flying discipline seems to be more intact than others. The above is why we carry high powered binoculars rather than try and 'chase' aircraft.
This is also what the parachutists do.

Any more sweeping assumptions to make?

Genghis the Engineer

I'll make a sweeping assumption if I may.

If a DA is published as H24, we should all assume that it is, errrr 24hrs/365days and not presume otherwise unless specifically told it's inactive by somebody in a position to know.

G

Man-on-the-fence

Go Smoke

Got any times for the infringements?

Go Smoke

Oh, its ok I just found a couple of turniphead quotes from other threads.
and
It all makes much more sense now.

Flyin'Dutch'

Jeepers you went through the trouble of searching those out?

I would have thought the name was a pretty good giveaway!

turniphead

Sweeping assumptions department..

"I believe the jump aircraft tried to get your registration, not sure if they did or not, but I wouldn't breath too easily for a couple of weeks mate."


"The above is why we carry high powered binoculars rather than try and 'chase' aircraft."

How about some consistency then 'mate'.

I did'nt and dont go or advocate going into an active danger Area.
I simply remind you how much more fortunate you are than other gliding clubs who do not have the protection of 24 hour danger zone around them.

Say again s l o w l y

I'm not sure why you are ranting at poor old turniphead like this. I think you have gone over the edge somewhat here and an apology is probably in order.

There are lots of stupid people in aircraft, many of whom wouldn't know where to find a NOTAM or know the difference between a danger area or a restricted zone.

Do you NOTAM when you are going to be active? Have you been to see all the local airfields and clubs to bang home the point that the airfield maybe active all the time? This can work wonders, how about organising a fly-in so that people can realise where you are and learn about some of the problems they can cause.
A far better method than just 'shopping' one person to the CAA.

For god's sake don't start getting into formating on or chasing 'intruders' as I have heard some other airfields have done in the past. Just as utterly idiotic as someone flying over head a glider site that is actively winch launching.

Flyin'Dutch'

Weston on the Green is permanently active, so no NOTAM required.

Winch gliding sites are marked on the CAA maps and I think it that the same people that don't take that as a message to avoid those spots will be the same that, as you say, can not find a NOTAM.

I am baffled to read that anyone has chased an 'intruder' to get a registration. I agree with you that this is as unclever as the alleged 'offence'

Go Smoke

Ok, I'll try again.

We carry high powered hand held binos at the launch point to try and ident zone busters. The parachutists have a huge pair of tripos mounted thingummyjigs which are incerdibly powerful for just the same reason.

I don't re-call saying that we chased or formated on any infringing aircraft - however I can see how you might jump to that assumption.
the jump aircraft was in the descent when the second guy passed underneath him and there was a request to spot his reg if possible. no chasing or formating.
Just highlighting another danger of busting the zone there - the jump aircraft in descent/circuit.

Why?? what possible relevance does this have to the topic??

Keep digging that hole 'mate'

say again s l o w l y
I'm lost for words at your post............................

As far as I can make out you seem to be calling turnip head a stupid person in an aircraft who wouldn't know where to find a NOTAM or know the difference between a danger area or restricted zone.
I'm probably wrong but that's what it seems like you're saying.

If you've got a half million to hand, grab it and have a look at D129.
Do you think it needs to be NOTAM'ed or, should it be picked up when you draw you route line right through the middle of it?

Say again s l o w l y

A NOTAM may not be required, but if this is a regular problem, then maybe NOTAM'ing could be a sensible precaution.

I've heard a couple of tales of a/c being chased to get reg no's. None recent, but having seen the reaction of some people to zone infringements, it doesn't surprise me one bit.

Go Smoke

Ok, so it seems we're all batting from the same wicket when talking about chasing or formating on zone busters - perhaps we can let that one go now.

Maybe proper route planning could avoid this problem.
I would propose that if someone can't be arsed to draw a line on a map then they're even less likely to bother to find out about NOTAM's.
When was the last time you had the living crap scared out of you by some wally with his head down following a line on his GPS.
It's not a storm in a tea cup, it's DEADLY serious.
If you are ever passing by then please, please feel free to drop in to WOG, have a cup of tea and watch the operation for half an hour.
I'm sure you will pale at the thought of ever flying through the zone.
Then imagine seeing your friend, partner, son or daughter flying up the wire in a glider as somebody trundles through the overhead oblivious to their position and the potential for disaster.

Say again s l o w l y

Having been to WOTG, I agree 100% about it not being a very good place to go blundering through. In fact at the moment we have one of your islanders sitting the main hangar at Cumbernauld, so Weston is not exactly unknown in these parts.

I live in a permanent state of fear caused by students and PPL's trying to kill me! It's usually far worse than just following a line aswell!

Go smoke, I'm not having a go at turniphead one little bit, it is your attitude towards him (if he is a he) that I find offensive.

Normally you'll find that the Binos that parachutists use are not there for spotting zone infringements, but for looking at the parachutists as they are on their way down. A slightly different reason you may find.

My point to you at WOTG is that even though you would have to be pretty daft to go blundering through, what are YOU doing to try and minimise the problem? It's all very well coming on to PPRUNE and whinging about how stupid people can be. But why not be proactive and go out and try and cut down the problems you are experiencing. You may well be doing this already and I'd be surprised if it hadn't been done at some point. Maybe a new push is required?

I can't quite understand why you would be lost at my post. It is fairly self-explanitory. Maybe a course in map reading (or post reading) would be sensible?

dublinpilot

Go Smoke,

I understand where you are coming from on this, however I would agree that you are being a little too hard on turniphead even if he did set himself up for it.

Perhaps there is a little more to this though than just your side of the story. I find it hard to believe that someone would just go straight through a danger area, intentionally, without getting the required info. I also find it difficult to believe that people actually use the goto function on their gps without checking where it is taking them. Maybe I'm naive, but I do find it difficult to believe.

So that leaves us with two possibilities.

1) The pilot thought they were somewhere other than where they actually were, or

2) The pilot believed that they had done all that was necessary.

If 1) is correct, then this is a navigation issue, rather than a planning or inconsiderate issue.

So how might a pilot believe that they had done all that was necessary?

Well, I'm unfamiliar with D129, I don't have a chart to hand, and I don't know what the entry for D129 in the AIP is. So this is just pure speculation.

But I take it, your gliding site is not the reason for the danger area? This is purely a guess, based on the fact that Danger area status isn't given to any other glider sites that I know of. So presumably it's due to some other reason. Someone mentioned a military base/airfield.

Now we should not forget that a danger area is just that. Dangerous. It's not restricted nor is it prohibited. A pilot is perfectly entitled to fly through it, but obviously should have obtained the the information on any activity taking place in the danger area before entering it.

It may be possible that the pilot called up the appropriate service (someone mentioned Brize Norton) and was told that the dangerous activity was not taking place at that time; perhaps told that the military base was closed. If that was the case, I would say the pilot was perfectly entitled to fly through the danger area.

Then the question arises about the pilot flying through a glider site. This is completely separate to flying through a danger area. I understand from previous posts that the glider site is marked on the VFR chart. Is there a frequency published on the chart for the glider site? If not, perhaps it would be a good idea to suggest to the CAA that one be included. If there is none, does your club mention to the authority charged with giving info on D129, that the site is in use that day, or that a parachute drop is about to take place? If not, and perhaps you do, but if not, it would seem like a good idea.

I don't mean to criticise you. That is not my intention. I'm just saying that, on the assumption that D129 is not there to protect your site, and that you're not the nominated frequency to call up for info on D129, it's a little hard to know what precautions the pilot took before going through D129. To assume it gives you protection is a big assumption.

The issue of flying through a glider site is a separate issue.

dp

Whirlygig

Dublinpilot has made some good points there.

If four aircraft infringed your zone when the norm is one or two, wouldn't that make you think that maybe some duff information was given out?

We know that there are some idjits out there and we all have a responsibility to keep an eye for them (just as the idjits have a responsibility to stop being idjits) but most pilots are conscientious and therefore I might start to think that there could be another issue.

Cheers

Whirls

PS - any of you Weston glider guys flying over Newbury Show on Saturday? Just wondering as I was there watching the Silver Wings parachute display team!

Man-on-the-fence

Ill ask again.

Any idea what time the infringements occurred?

Go Smoke

Sorry, had to actually do some work for once!

Dublinpilot, you are correct - still in rant mode I'm afraid.

turniphead - apologies for any offence caused and for being a little punchy.

D129 is marked as 24H - it genuinely is a 24/7 hazard.

The area is a military drop zone.

Three different types of drop occur there:

sport parachuting - static and accelerated freefall. This occurs during daylight hours seven days a week.

Standard Mil drops - squaddies being kicked out of a Herc. This occurs anytime night or day seven days a week.

Special forces Mil drops - HALO etc occuring anytime day or night, seven days a week.


Sure it's not illegal to fly through D129 but neither is sticking your fingers in a three phase socket!

I do believe somebody was prosecuted for infringing the area a few years ago - I seem to remember a £4,000 fine but not sure what other penalties were applied. I'll try and find out.

We can surmise a great deal about what might or might not have been happening in the cockpit but, will never know DP
I understand where you are coming from on this, however bear in mind it is marked as a 24 hour hazard.

I make no assumption that D129 is there to protect the gliding operation.
This is not just about the gliders it's about the parachutists too.

Difficult as it may be to believe, it happens too frequently to be pure accident.

This is not a beef with power pilots - I fly them as well.
We also, occasionally, get gliders busting the zone too.
It is a beef with airmanship and I was a little shocked too see how close we were to having a nasty accident last w/e.

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Hi Whirls,

Not sure what duff info could have been given out.

Wasn\'t me near Newbury on Saturday. I had the NOTAM info.
Turned Basingstoke as 1st TP but tracked back up the western edge of Reading.
Got my trace to prove it!

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Hi Man-on-the-fence,

Not sure what you want the info for - not looking for a witch hunt just hoping that whoever busted D129 might read this and have a little think about it.

pm me if you still feel you want more info.

Whirlygig

Go SMoke,

All I was getting at was, as Dublinpilot also suggested, that the pilots concerned may have been told that Weston/D129 was not active.

It's just that with four aircraft flying over, maybe consider something else (I don't know what to suggest) unforeseen could have been a factor as to me it seems too many to be a coincidence.

Cheers

Whirls