Sliding member

I appreciate this topic may have been visited before but its something I came across recently. As a PPL doing a check ride for the flying club I'm hiring the A/C off, should the time be logged as PUT or P1/S. At different clubs I've been told different things. Just wondered which is strictly correct. Many thanks in anticipation of your replys.

Jepp

I know that this may not be the correct answer you were looking for, BUT,

When I am being ' checked out ' by an instructor, on an aircraft and flight that I am LEGALLY allowed to make, I log it as P1......end of.

I dont care wether he or she is an ATPL Concorde captain or the King of Siam, I am not on test, nor am I being given instruction, the person in the other seat is mearly a passenger, albeit a knowledgeable one.

Regards

Jepp

BEagle

For whatever reason you're being 'checked out' by a Flight Instructor, the fact is that the FI is Commander and you are P1U/S - 'First Pilot under supervision'.

The FI is most certainly NOT a 'knowledgeable passenger'!

Noggin

And the hours count as P1 provided the log book is signed by the cammander with his/her licence number.

BEagle

So, Jepp, if you put yourself down as Commander for 'check out' flights (as you call them) with a FI, then you are knowingly making false entries in your personal log book. The flights are P1U/S, the FI is Commander and you can only 'claim' the time as P1 if he/she also countersigns your log book entry at the time......

Jepp

Beagle

Are you sure about logging it as P1u/s, ?

I am almost certain that P1u/s can only be logged on the successful outcome of a flight test, say an IMC renewal,

A checkout is NOT an official flight test, it is done to sattisfy club rules for insurance etc and not the CAA.

Jepp

BEagle

It is a flight being conducted under the supervision of a Flight Instructor. He/she - not you - is ipso facto the Commander and you may log the time as P1U/S if your logbook is countersigned as Noggin states - and he certainly does know the rules, I can assure you!

P1U/S is P1 flying under supervision, not 'under training'.

M14P

Lots of people seem to get very flustered about P1/us. I feel that it is important to go back to basics:

Are you receiving training for the grant or extension of a license or rating? (i.e. PPL, IMC, IR, CPL etc etc)

If yes then you can log P/ut

If no then it can't be P/ut

P1/us fills in a gap. You can log it if you are undergoing differences training with an instructor or a group or flying club check out. It also applies to successful examination flights and actin commander of a two crew aircraft which the holder has on Part 1 of his or her license - i.e. a rated co-pilot handling the controls. IT MUST BE COUNTERSIGNED BY P1.

There is no limit on the logging of P1/us but I fear that if you flew with another PPL the whole time and logged P1/us to bolster ones' log book the CAA might raise its collective eyebrows.

Hope this helps

SteveR

Beagle, you are so wrong.

P1s is for successful flights made for the purpose of achieving or renewing a rating of licence. ie, it can only be logged if the guy/gal next to you is an EXAMINER (not an FI), and if you pass.

If you're already qualified to fly the a/c in question, and the purpose of the checkride is to allow you to rent, then you need to decide before the flight how it's going to be logged. If the FI is desperate for the hours, then let him/her log P1 and you log Pu/t, if not then you log P1 and s/he's a passenger.

A vanilla PPL, with no IMC or other rating, should have AT MOST 2 flights logged as P1s (ie, you can take your skills test in two flights), no matter how many checkrides s/he has taken to rent or join groups. If you revalidate by experience, then the hour with the instructor is logged as P u/t, if you let it lapse and need to revalidate by test, then that's P1s

That said, the CAA don't seem to give a flying something-or-other about what you log, unless they have particular need to examine your flying record.

Steve R

(Edited to also accuse M14P of being wrong. Differences training (tailwheel, complex types, night rating) are all P.u/t - these are INSTRUCTORS, not EXAMINERS)

BEagle

No SteveR - you are the one who is utterly wrong! My statements reflect those made by a CAA inspector regarding this matter.



Whenever you fly under the supervision of a FI, he/she is the Commander.

M14P

I'm afraid you are very wrong SteveR.

Like BEagle I have sought extensive information on this subject.

Ask yourself this:

During differences training or a check out are you "receiving instruction for the grant or extension of a license or rating"

The answer is NO! Therefore, since the above is the definition of P/ut it CANNOT be logged as such.

Sorry Boss!

SteveR

M14P:During differences training - yes, so I log Pu/t. During a checkride, not necessarily, so it's Pu/t or P1.

Beagle: Yep - if the FI is instructing, or the pair of them have agree that the FI is the commander. If the prospective renter is the comander, then the FI is educated PAX.

Steve R

BEagle

You clearly do not understand the meaning of the word 'supervision', SteveR. Undergoing a 'check ride' prior to the hire of an aeroplane means that the person conducting the check ride is required to be there in order to assess that your performance is satisfactory for whatever requirements the organisation offering the ac for hire has deemed appropriate. Otherwise there would be no need for a 'check ride' in the first place.

If you are under any FI supervision, you are not the Commander and may only log your flying time for that flight as P1U/S if the FI also countersigns your personal logbook including his/her licence number.

What exactly is the problem with that? Apart from delusions of grandeur on behalf of the pilot under supervision.

CAHLIBAHN_MK2

Interesting views on a subject that gets aired every six months or so. Last time I saw this discussed a difference between multi-crew and single crew aircraft was pointed out.

(Unfortunately the CAA website is down so I can't quote the relevent GID verbatim).

I seem to remember that the consensus then was that P1u/s could only be used by single-crew aircraft pilots when logging a successful flight test. There were many instances where logging P1u/s as a multi-crew member was appropriate.

M14P

SteveR

When you do differences training what rating or license do you receive from the CAA? Answer: Nothing. That's because differences are not ratings. A rating is SEP or MEP that sort of thing.

Your last post shows that you are a little confused over this issue.
You don't seem very clear over this issue. If you don't believe me at least believe BEagle - he's an examiner!

Cool down a little before even more people are confused.

SteveR

The key words are 'for whatever requirements the organisation .... has deemed appropriate.'

Normally these requirements are insurance driven, or simply the club rules, or just plain commonsense - nothing to do with ANO or other legal, licencing requirements. Our group requires that prospective new members are accompanied by an existing member who's current - either of them could log P1, neither of them could log P1s (because it's not an exam and neither is an examiner) or Pu/t (because neither is an instructor).

I don't have a huge problem with it. P1s is logged wrongly all over the place and I don't know any pilot who has had any P1s time queried by the CAA - they are after all 'personal logbooks'.

I like my personal logbook to be done properly, so I don't log P1s unless I've successfully flown with an examiner for the purpose of granting or renewing a rating or licence.

Steve R

BEagle

Ah - that's slightly different. If you're in a private owner group, any new group member isn't 'hiring' an aeroplane from you, they are effectively becoming part owners. So in your case, if they've flown that particular breed of aeroplane before and are just familiarising themselves with your particular one, then indeed no 'training' is taking place. Thus one pilot will be the Commander and will log the whole flight time as such, the other may log P1 time (not in this case P1U/S) only for the actual time he/she is at the controls but must annotate 'Shared' in the Remarks column and the actual Commander (who does not need to be a FI or FE) must countersign the entry.

For example, say a fellow pilot invited me to fly with him in his aeroplane of a type with which I was familiar and offered me the take-off and half of the flying on a 2hr trip. He would log 2hr as Commander (P1C), I would log 1hr P1 with his name as Pilot in Command, he would countersign my logbook entry.

SteveR

Cor!! So, if, after you'd landed, filled in your personal logbooks and gone home, and the CAA got onto you about the air prox that you'd been involved in, both of you could say "Not me guv, he was in charge". I like it.

Steve R

SimJock

Am I still right in thinking that if you get the chance to share P1 in a plane for which you have NOT had the required differences training (RT/VP) you cannot log it AT ALL, until the training has been done ?

At present I just log this shared P1 at the 'back of the book' and will hopefully use it to reduce required differences training time, when I get round to it.

BEagle

Slight cock-up in my previous post - the pilot offering me the flight would be Commander for the whole flight but as neither of us would be operating under the supervision of the other, in the 2 hr flight we would only be entitled to log P1 time for the actual time each of us was controlling the ac - and it would add up to 2hr between us. But he would be the one your CAA man would speak to as Commander if during the period of his command the other pilot had the airprox you describe.