airlines and morale

[macaskill1]

Hi

I am a journalist wih The Sunday Times, based in Glasgow and cover transport issues for the Scottish edition.
I would like to write a piece for the coming weekend (2nd Feb) about the working conditions faced by some pilots. For some time, I have heard many are on lower wages than one might expect yet still work long hours - the message posted today re: easyJet's pilots would seem to support this.
Hardly surprising in this day and age, yet pilots have greater responsibility than most. I wonder if any would be willing to speak with me, particularly those with airlines such as Ryanair, EasyJet, BA, Virgin and Go! (simply because these are the main carriers out of Scotland)?
Anonymity, if desired, is guaranteed although for my own records I would like to know who I'm speaking to.
I hope a few of you will be able to help. I can be contacted on [email protected] or direct dial 44 (0)141 420 5339.

Many Thanks.

[ghost-rider]

Mark - Congrats and respect for being up front about your intentions.

Don't take this personally, but is the intention of your article to further damage the industry in the wake of recent events ? Or maybe that is not the intent, but what do you think would be the public perception ?

By reading these pages you know doubt have an idea as to the mistrust and basic hostility towards alleged informed correspondants who by sheer weight of inept articles, prove that they actually know nothing & are just after sensationalist stories.

The above hopefully doesn't apply to yourself ( and I'm not even hinting that it may ) but you must admit some 'stories' leave a lot to be desired !

Best wishes.

[macaskill1]

I think any article which reveals that pilots are working long hours for pay that is not commensurate to effort and which perhaps shows pilots have to fly when very tired will, by its very nature, be of concern.
The aim is not to be sensationalist - either the above is happening or it isn't. I've heard enough on the grapevine, however, to suggest the situation is becoming serious and that's why I decided to post my thoughts on the chatboard.
I think public perception will be one of concern but it's important to remember that employees are not to blame here - the airlines are.
I hope that helps but if you have any other thoughts, I'll do my best to reply - my week starts getting a bit hectic tomorrow.

best wishes

Mark.

[ghost-rider]

Fair point.

Although I think ... working long hours for pay that is not commensurate to effort ... applies to the industry as a whole, not just the flightdeck !

This place is a prime example !

I'll resign from this thread now, as you are aiming it at flightdeck.

What I will ask though Mark - please don't forget the groundstaff as we have a major influence on flight safety as well !

[Orangewing]

erm, Ghost - rider - how exactly does someone who works in ops contribute a "major influence to flight safety"?
I thought all you guys did was charter learjets!!! :(

[GlueBall]

2002: 82 flights consisting of 529 hours total flight time, plus 246 hours (before and after flight) duty time; plus 96 hours (4 days for 4 commercial deadheads); plus 8 hours in simulator; plus 40 hours recurrent ground school; plus 696 hours (29 days/nights) at hotels. Total of 1615 hours away from my home. Excluding hotel time, total hours spent "on duty:" 919

The downside is that 60% of flight time is at night, which is not fun. :p

[Tcas climb]

macaskill1

I suggest you take a long look at the first proppossal from JAA regarding crew dutytime limitation. They are astonishing and taken to the extreme the reaction time of pilots at the end of a duty corrosponds to an alcohol level of ,008 according to Swedish experts. I don't know were this propossal is on the internet, but I'm sure someone else in here knows.

[millerscourt]

Macaskill I don't think the general public care too much about possible Pilot fatigue as aircraft are not dropping out of the sky because of it!
In this 24 hour world I have no doubt life expectancy is reduced by the level of fatigue over 35 years of time zone changes ,night flights ,radiation etc etc but it is not really a newsworthy thing IMHO. The Employers always say it is just lazy Pilots,or they say we will do what we are complaining about if we get paid more for doing it.

Every few years this question of fatigue crops up and over the past 35 years I have been in this business a lot is talked about it but commercial interests always gain the upper hand .

[ghost-rider]

Orangewing ...

:rolleyes:

[saudipc-9]

Orangewing,
Ghost-rider is right. Flight safety is a team effort which includes the ops staff. Not just those of us who sit in the pointy end.
It is an attitude too.;)

[twinjet]

saudi;
agree flight safety team effort but cannot think what ops bring to the party.
ghostrider:
so what stunning piece of flight safety do you bring to the team?

[Horatio]

Mark

I agree with others sentiments; good on you to be upfront and try to get the facts rather than 'invent' them as many of your peers have done in the interests of sensationalism.

I would however respectfully correct the misconception that long duty hours is related to pay and therefore, by implication, increasing pay would resolve a 'fatigue issue'.

The two are not related, far from it. In fact, most in the low cost sector get paid very well, by comparison. Pay is not the core issue with the EJ pilots, nor is it the core issue with those protesting about EU FTLs. It is important that you understand this.

[jumpseater]

No Mr Wing we've done helicopters too!.

For your goodself and twinjet, I can think of two or three issues that have occurred in my 5 or so years of ops where intervention by various ops members, in different airlines, have contributed significantly to flight safety. One of which was the refusal to operate a charter, which had been sold and was insisted on being operated by the charter airlines management.

If you want a more comprehensive answer regarding ops' contribution to safety, start a new thread in the ops forum, if youre hard enough! :eek: :)

[THINALBERT]

Fatigue is a major problem It is exacerbated (certainly in my airline) by a CEO who is looking for loopholes in legislation and, whilst trying to be seen to be abiding by the letter of the law, is in fact attempting to ride roughshod over everything CAP371 was brought in to achieve.

Downward pressure on terms and conditions, and being expected to give more and more for less and less reward long ago took the fun out of this profession. Now, imho, it is starting to become a serious potential cause of a major incident/accident. And what happens if you indicate that you or your crew are not fit to operate up to 3 hours extra (discretion)? You are gently reminded that there are a lot of unemployed pilots out there who will take your job tomorrow. Its true as well. So the system feeds on itself, reducing safety margins and making CEOs and directors nice bonusses in the process.

Time for something to be done Mr Macaskill. Dig Deep and Go For It! Please.

[BIG E]

TJ et all

We have a difficult enough time with ezy management who have no idea what we do or why we exist,without having to explain to people who should know better. I suggest a familiarisation into ops if you can find it,in the meantime check your plogs very carefully or is that not a safety issue?I could go on.....

[NoJoke]

BIG E.

I'm sure we all agree that everyone in the team contribes to flight safety. However I think the idea of the original post was to find out about fatigue and other factors affecting flightcrew.

I, for one, appreciate the support given by most Ops, crewing, & rostering personnel.

NJ

[GULFPILOT76]

No Joke,. . . .you must be joking!! Do you work for Heaven Air,
it sure sounds like it. Most airlines in my humble opinion do not give a rat's *** about fatique. It's all about the beans now, profit, profit, and survival. Sure we would all be out of a job if. . .,
but I have seen the balance tipping over veeeery slowly to the side that is not in our favour, it used to be a nice job but not anymore. And for the starter of this topic, look at 'pilots against more hours', there is some really good stuff in there.

[Roobarb]

Thanks Mark, I’m sure that you will seriously represent the concerns of flight crew, but in a week when we’ve seen such blatant distortions and crude stereotypes trotted out by the Mail, you might forgive us all taking this with an unhealthy pile of salt.

My primary concerns are as follows:

- the large volume of legislation being thrust upon us by the administration in the name of ‘security’, but more to do with ‘spin’, leading to flight crew members being boroscoped in public every time we go to fly our own plane. What are we going to do? Hijack ourselves?
- Similarly the proscribing of family members accompanying us on the flight deck because they are a ‘security risk’, as opposed to some bloke I’ve never met with an ID he could have made up on his PC.
- the cynical Jihad about so-called drinking and flying whilst conspiring to make us fly unsafe hours, completely in the face of legislation designed to avoid fatigue which is a real killer.
- This illusion about pilot salaries. My headline salary might look quite attractive, but factor in the relative lack of extras, and the long hours, separation etc and it doesn’t look quite so rosy. Compare that to some of my neighbours who have company car, assisted house purchase, health care for the whole family, airmiles, school fees, and of course the annual bonus which for one computer nerd round the corner was £100k last year. That makes me the pauper of the neighbourhood.
- The staggeringly inept standard of British management in general and airline management in particular. Most of the pilots in the UK are proud professionals who do the job regardless to the best of their abilities and very successfully. Most of the suits we are forced to put up with see this loyalty as a sign of weakness. They continue to pile more and more responsibility on the pilot whilst taking away his authority and demeaning his status in favour of a ‘flatter’ management structure.

You’ll find that most pilots will tell you that once the aeroplane is safely airborne and away from the suits, the operation runs in a quiet, calm, efficient manner until once again we come down to Earth and the stress of dealing with assholes.

The reason that management hate pilots is that we refuse to play the game of bollitics that their sad lives revolve around. Pilots hate management because the qualities that make a good pilot are completely, diametrically opposed to the qualities exhibited by managers.

I’m sorry to rant, but if you worked for a company like mine you would encounter this everyday. Pilots have accountability and little authority. Managers have authority, but little or no accountability. :*

http://www.sausagenet.freeserve.co.uk/roobarb/roohorn.gif
I’ll take on the opposition anyday. It’s my management I can’t beat!

[RAT 5]

Mac:

You've obviously picked up on a thread and would like a story. There is one, but it needs to be treated with great care; even more so than many Panorama exposees.

The debate is most certainly not about money. The profession is vocational and that is being abused by management. Much of aviation has become a sweat shop existance, (by comparison to other 21st century professions). Crews are treated as cost items, not assets. The similarity with the health service springs to mind. There are limits of work set out by the CAA's of each country. They are LIMITS, and within those there are guidelines. The guidelines are ignored and management treat the limits like the Italian tax system. It's a good game to find the loop holes, whether they exsist or not.

Generally, in Europe, the lot of the average employee has improved dramatically over the past 10 years since various EU legislation has been introduced. Health & Safety at work has improved the working enviroment. Public transport was exempt from much of these rules and the quality of life has deteriorated beyond a joke.

Having said that, there are some good company's, namely the majors; most likely because they have had a strong union for many years. Indeed, most pilot unions were formed within the flag carriers. Being a commercial pilot is as different as liquorice allsorts. There is no national standard of employment; it just depends who you work for.

To make an accurate assessment of the profession will take great care, delicacy, honesty and no pre-conceived ideas. There is no broad brush to cover all, and thus may not be as easy to present as it first appears.

PS.

Roobarb: Well said.

"Pilots hate management." IMHO this is caused because most managements dislike pilots, all crews. They make their money from transporting pax. That's easy becasue they will do as they are told!! The a/c will fly all day & night, and with enough fuel, for ever. The bean counters hate the fact that they have to have crews. They are the limiting factor. If pax would fly on an unmanned automated a/c the financial boys would love it; until the first prang.

What amazes me is that all except one excellent management team I've worked for, most airline managaments operate 180' to what is considered good man-management practices. Morale is not consdered an asset. We are part of a machine, taken for granted. It erks them that this component is a 'lifed item' (i.e.FTL's) and not an 'on condition item'. And that the service life is too short.

What erks us, about them, is that if we displayed the same level of competance and desicion making that they do, we would fail our regular checks, never pass a command course and ultimately be kicked out. Somehow that never seems to happen upstairs.

Perhaps the definition of accountability you were talking about.

[small4]

Mac,

Thanks for your open approach to us all asking for information for your article.

By the responses you will probably already have received, plus the posts here, I'm sure you have already appreciated the myriad number of facets contained within a fairly compact and dynamic industry.

I cannot disagree with and wholeheartedly endorse just about all of the comments made so far on conditions within the industry. Note I refer to conditions and not pay.

A number of the more mature pilots have reasonable bank balances mainly because they do not have the time to reduce the balance! The new guys? I do not understand how some survive.

Just three points I would ask you to keep in mind:

1) Are we pilots, particularly those who have been in the industry 20 to 30 years, a bunch of habitual moaning whingers?

2) How many totally positive responses in respect of conditions have you received?

3) If you ask, how many pilots will allow you to quote their name in any article? Remember these guys do not fear to make daily decisions manifestly affecting the lives of hundreds of people in their care.

What they do fear is the management!

[Amazon man]

Roobarb

Absolutely spot on, one of our biggest problems is management and lets face it, managing people is not rocket science its good old common sense, unfortunately seriously lacking in the 21st century.

When was the last time you saw any of your management team, when was the last time you saw the manager of your aircraft handling company when things went seriously wrong on the ground, I think the guy we deal with is permanently welded to his office seat.

Very often all these issues have little to do with wages, I would just like other people involved with aviation to take as much resonsibility for their jobs as I am expected to do with mine.

Once the aircraft becomes airborne all problems disappear or rather all problems become mine and my colleagues and we are well trained and responsible enough to deal with them. Its just a shame I have to come back down again.

[Lou Scannon]

There has always been a problem with the "suits", looking at the flying hours that the company pilots achieve and then complaining along the lines of "so much pay and so little time at work".

Try running a comparison between the hours that management work and the length of time their company cars are in their allocated parking slot. It will be around 1:1.

Then compared the flying hours that the crews put in and the length of time their own car has to be in the airport parking to achieve those hours. It will be around 1:2.

[dickyflys]

As Virgin Atlantic have just had their 4th pay offer rejected by BALPA, you way want to ask some Virgin pilots how low morale is at the moment. It couldn't get lower.

Meetings arranged for this weekend to move the process to the next stage, Industrial action.

[Idunno]

Whilst I agree that many of our problems are management created...the true irony is that most of the people managing us are pilots or ex-pilots!

In my company the FOM is a pilot, so are all his negotiators, so is the dork who does our crew planning (including leave and seniority), and now the CEO is also an ex-pilot!!
And they are screwing us.

Yes, pilots are whingers...and backstabbers, and social climbers, and ambitious b'stards who climb over each others dead bodies to get to the top of the mucky pile.

Having a bad day today. Sorry.
:(

[Alien Shores]

I have extensive experience with a UK major airline in both the longhaul and shorthaul evironments. Each can be as bad as the other fatigue wise. For example:

NASA research indicates that rest downroute should not be rostered between 18 and 36 hours, as the body does not have time to complete sufficient sleep cycles. So what is the average rest time on a transatlantic? Yep.. 24 hours. Ready for the next sleep pattern as you report, and I have come off the Atlantic ocean into a busy ATC environment trading on adrenalin more times than I care to remember. And then there's the drive home...
In shorthaul, multiple early starts, long duty days, minimum rest in the hotel and a 6-on/ 2-off pattern have a debilitating, cumulative effect. Social life is next to impossible on the 2 off, as they are essentially recovery days... factor in the added pressure that brings to bear from relationship stress and, well....
The complete lack of protection between west/east integrations in longhaul.. To come from a 3-day Dubai on day, and operate a 3-day New York next makes it impossible to try to plan a sensible rest pattern.
Locked cockpit door, the knowledge that anyone enters your cockpit to take over the aircraft and you are likely going to die, increasingly invasive and utterly pointless searches at security (vis.. they make me take my shoes off, when all I really need to do to down an airliner is stick that foot out in the cruise,) inability to take family on trips any more as no way can you guarantee their return as you used to on the jumpseat... all adds a little bit to the stress bucket.


..and on, and on. All that, and you have a beer to wind down of an evening and are a criminal, when the greater threat to the safety of your passengers is the fact that sometimes you can hardly keep your eyes open. All this is a major airline remember.. the guys who fly for CAP 371 operators and the freight jocks can have it worse.

Yeah, it's a glamorous job indeed. Knowing what I know now, I don't think I'd do it again... it's been great, met wonderful people and seen sights and sounds that most of humanity don't get to. But it's just not worth it unless you can have control over your life, and that we do not have.

[Sleeve Wing]

Thanks, Mark, for at least being honest.
Maybe you'll get some takers because, be in no doubt, there is a BIG STORY here.
I can only suggest that you read again carefully all the contributions to this thread, particularly those of Roobarb and Rat 5.

As has been said, this is not about money. Its about ravaged quality of life, persistent tiredness and not even the slightest hint of gratitude at the end of the day.
I've been in this game for well over thirty years and, although salaries rise, the penalties have become ever more corrosive. Unfortunately the CAA don't help as they bend or blatantly ignore what some airline managements are up to.
It wasn't until I'd been out of it for a couple of years that I realised it had been slowly but surely affecting my health and well-being.
One thing's for sure; there is a definite degree of jealousy from the suits
that affects any of their dealings with pilots. When we sort out the "attitudes" problem ( on both sides, btw.) we might be part-way there.
Just a few thoughts.

Sleeve.

[Rolling Stone]

Isn’t it amazing how seriously some of our number take them selves when they get into their seats at the front and are cuckooed from the rest of the world. Remember guys, if the toilet man does not dump the toilets we are not going anywhere! Everyone is equally important until you get off the ground.

[meatball]

True that upper management have always taken a dislike towards flightcrew...all around the world the same deal.

[cargo boy]

Yes we know that the operation to prepare an a/c for flight involves a lot of people but Rolling Stone, this thread is about fatigue and its effect on flight crew morale. If you can't even use the correct word for cocooned then please stick to dumping your lavs and bog off (pun intended).

[Anthony Carn]

macaskill1

Are you going to send us a copy of your article, here, on this thread, please ?

:)

[Jet II]

Idunno

Yes, pilots are whingers...and backstabbers, and social climbers, and ambitious b'stards who climb over each others dead bodies to get to the top of the mucky pile.


Well welcome to the real world - it is exactly the same in every other walk of life. Bad management is enedemic throughout UK industry - I seem to remember a survey by the FT last year that put UK management competancy in about 30th place for industrialised nations.

Roobarb

the annual bonus which for one computer nerd round the corner was £100k last year. That makes me the pauper of the neighbourhood.


What have you done this year to deserve a bonus of £100K? - this computer guy may have invented the wheel! - and as for being a pauper, you are only a pauper if you compare yourself to professions paying more. Are you a pauper compared to Teachers, Doctors, Social Workers etc.?

The original Idea of this thread was about fatigue - this has very serious concerns on flight safety and to try to hijack the thread into a winge about T&C's is wrong. The sort of rota at Easy which gives a 7 on 2 off is something that the licensing authorities should be looking into very seriously.

As for morale - this is a rock bottom throughout the industry and will only improve when the industry picks up - which it will eventually.

[Blue Panorama]

What about the other peolpe flying in and out of our airspace?

I understand that Italian FTL's allow an IRS equipped aircraft with 3 pilots aboard to be on duty for up to 24 hours. This does not take into account preceeding rest periods, acclimatisation, number of sectors or time of start. To say this is an accident waiting to happen is an understatement.

Apparently the third pilot need not be able to land the aircraft, just hold a type rating. I suppose the IRS's are a requirement so that when the 3 pilots do fall asleep, the aircraft will still head in the direction it was meant to!

This is a very big story worldwide but how can there be such variation across Europe where unity rules and JAA has taken hold?

:confused:

[macaskill1]

yes, I'll post a copy next week and any criticisms welcomed. So many issues have become apparent since my original post that I won't be able to do justice to all of them in one go.
However, I'd like to return to safety issues, pay, working conditions, etc over the coming weeks and months and hope this weekends article will give some of you confidence to deal with me in the future.

regards
Mark

[RAT 5]

Jet 11


"Morale will improve when the industry picks up."

Popycock. Management will always have an excuse.

1. Next year will not be as good as this bumper year, so there are no rewards because we need to tighten the belt in preparation. (and of course, even after the next year is OK, they use the same argument.) It's,like the pub sign that says. "free beer tomorrow."

followed by:

2. We are expanding and recruiting, but we have to be very cost cautious. We are undercrewed for our expansion so you all have to work harder. The company will strengthen, but slowly.

followed by:

3. See 1.

It's called cycles, and the only guys who seem to benefit are the suits who award themselves bonuses for a short-term rise in the profits on the back of everyone elses efforts. Once the next dip comes the bonuses are not repaid even though the slight improvement was only virtual reality. Someone said 'real world', perhaps, but it needs changing!

[Agaricus bisporus]

A great quote by Dwight D Eisenhower appeared in the paper recently. It went something like this;

"Morale is a word you never hear when it is good, and when you do hear it it is usually lousy".

The watchword of this industry seems increasingly to be "The beatings/shaftings will continue until morale improves".

Its not much fun any more.

[Bigmouth]

Why bother writing an article about safety? Your readers - the flying public - don´t care a rat´s a** about safety. All they care about is how low the ticket price is.

[twinjet]

When I was a boy, the return air fare to New York was about £200. 10 years later, everything in the world has gone up in price except the NY air fare...about £179. Why is this? Along with negative inflation on air fares is a decrease in pilot living standards. When Diana died being chased by the press, I was amazed to read of the publics contempt for the paparazzi, yet it was the same public who devoured every report on Diana that fuelled the demand for pictures of her.If we ever have a crash caused by overworked, fatigued pilots, possibly in a low cost airline, or even a major as they try to compete,the public will be the first to ask why were the crew tired?The people that want to travel return to Barcelona for £30! Lo cost has offered career prospects to some pilots that are unheard of in the majors(flag carriers).These are ambitious , highly motivated people who , three years after qualifying can be earning £80000. The holy grail of a jet command has led to a certain amount of" pliability" of rest requirements,etc.

I was recently at a dinner party and the conversation came around to lo cost aviation, which I work in. An enthusiastic couple mentioned that they thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. When I mentioned the hours I worked, how tired I was reporting for work, let alone leaving it, the constant roster changes that did not allow me to plan my rest, the effect it was having on my home life, my inability to accept an invitation to dinner, and that with all this , I might have to deal with engine failures, weather etc, I realised I was probably one of the best adverts a traditional airline had ever used.

[Ignition Override]

Macaskill 1: You might not be interested in US airline operations. If not, then disregard these remarks.

I can't remember the British version of our NTSB (Nat'l Tran. Safety Board), which investigates major transportation accidents. The first aircraft accident, whereby the NTSB pointed to crew fatigue as the primary factor, concerns a cargo DC-8 crash at G'mo Bay NAS, Cuba, several or more years ago. Crew fatigue is very common, but it must have been a bit severe, based on the crew's last sleep period, which was before a long night. The Naval Air Station (where the Taliban prisoners are housed) is known as a very demanding place to approach, due to the requirement to make a last minute turn onto final approach, because of the surrounding Cuban territory.

It was strange that the NTSB finally admitted in a public record, what we pilots (and FAs) have always known is commonplace in our industry-in passenger and cargo ops. The cargo aircraft accidents are rarely noticed by the public, and we all know what types of topics create "good copy".

Our FAA 'guardian angels', for the first time in history, only began to require planned rest periods (lasting for a solid 8 hours!) for pilots who with have several days of consecutive 24-hour reserve/standby duty, because of the MD-83 tragedy in Little Rock. Hence its infamous nickname, "the Tombstone Agency": assuming that there is something big enough to be buried.

Have the British (or Irish, French, Dutch, German, Swiss...) "NTSB" ever ruled that fatigue was a major contributor to an airline accident over there? There must be plenty of hazardous airports over there, even in good weather, and not just in the Alps etc

[Caractacus]

>>Have the British (or Irish, French, Dutch, German, Swiss...) "NTSB" ever ruled that fatigue was a major contributor to an airline accident over there? There must be plenty of hazardous airports over there, even in good weather, and not just in the Alps etc<<


Yes they have. I copy a relevant AAIB report below. This was to a foriegn registered aircraft not operating under CAP 371 - the British flight time limitations scheme. The low cost carriers are, in my opinion, pushing pilots into new territory as regards the intensity of working patterns. Coupled with commercial pressures, and levels of experience, my view is that a fatigue related accidents is on the cards. I just hope that such an accident can reveal the extent of the problem without injury or loss of life. then perhaps we can return to calmer, safer days.

Other AAIB reports are at:

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/index.htm



Aircraft Incident Report 1/96

Report on the accident to Boeing 737-2D6C, 7T-VEE at Willenhall, Coventry, Warwickshire on 21 December 1994
Synopsis
The accident occurred when the aircraft, which had been chartered for the export of live animals to the Continent, was making a Surveillance Radar Approach (SRA) to Runway 23 at Coventry Airport in conditions of patchy lifting fog. The aircraft descended below the Minimum Descent Height (MDH) for the approach procedure, and collided with electricity cables and a transmission tower (pylon) which was situated on the extended centreline of the runway, some 1.1 miles from its threshold. The collision caused major damage to the inboard high lift devices on the left wing and the left engine. The consequent loss of lift on the left wing, and the thrust asymmetry, caused the aircraft to roll uncontrollably to the left. When passing through a wings vertical attitude, the left wingtip impacted the gable end of a house, causing major structural damage to the property. The aircraft continued rolling to an inverted attitude and impacted the ground in an area of woodland close to the edge of the housing conurbation. An intense fire ensued, during which a large part of the forward fuselage aft to the wheel well, including the wing centre section and the inboard portions of the wings were consumed. The five occupants suffered fatal multiple injuries on impact. There were no injuries to other persons.

The report identifies the following causal factors:

i) The flight crew allowed the aircraft to descend significantly below the normal approach glidepath during a Surveillance Radar Approach to Runway 23 at Coventry Airport, in conditions of patchy lifting fog. The descent was continued below the promulgated Minimum Descent Height without the appropriate visual reference to the approach lighting or the runway threshold.

ii) The standard company operating procedure of cross-checking altimeter height indications during the approach was not observed and the appropriate Minimum Descent Height was not called by the non handling pilot.

iii) The performance of the flight crew was impaired by the effects of tiredness, having completed over 10 hours of flight duty through the night during five flight sectors which included a total of six approaches to land.

Nine safety recommendations have been made.

[Stan Woolley]

Caractacus

The low cost carriers are, in my opinion, pushing pilots into new territory as regards the intensity of working patterns

Absolutely, the effects are of course cumulative. In our case it has been the disruption and patterns rather than hours flown which has over a relatively few years led me to consider options outside aviation.

The truth is I still love flying and don't want to do anything else, but I can seriously see myself eventually losing my medical if I don't get a more reasonable flying job.

I welcome this publicity, it will add pressure after the next accident! :mad:

[Caractacus]

<<The truth is I still love flying and don't want to do anything else, but I can seriously see myself eventually losing my medical if I don't get a more reasonable flying job.<<

I couldn't agree more. My guess is that airline flying will increasingly become a short term career option for people in their twenties and thirties. Airlines will increasingly use training pay back schemes to reduce investment in training. Savings will be made on pensions, incremental salaries and lack of seniority. The overall depth of experience will reduce. This ultimately represents a degradation in safety.

However, this is innapropriate because:

A. People have a right to work in a reasonable way without being continually overtired or stretched in their task.

B. The task has become a lot more complicated and demanding especially post 9/11.

C. The only real issue is ticket price. So what if prices rose to provide better safety margins?

[Indiana Jones]

I agree that this should be expanded to other airline personnel...as a station manager with a major airline since 9/11 my workload has quadrupled,from running one station to four and expanded responsibilities in Europe,....with of course no extra money.In a recent five day period I had meetings in Rome,Manchester,Dublin,Shannon,Gatwick and Washington DC.My average daily email count is 100plus......I'm not complaining,no point, just have to get on with it or find another job, but this should be a good example of what 9/11 meant to a number of airlines as they struggle to survive.

[RAT 5]

Someone, in an earlier post, mentioned the holy grail of command and how quickly it can be obtained; implying a lowering of standards. When I started in this game the common threshold was 5000hrs to be considered eligable. There were other criteria, but this was a base point. If the candidate was exceptional and had been in the company for many years, it might be lowered to 4000. Now, 3000 seems to be the norm. Hours aren't everything, it's the quality of those hours; short-haul v long-haul etc. However, hours does identify exposure to the enviroment. A reduction of 2000 hours is about 3 years less exposure. 3000 hours, after flying school, is only about 4 years experience. Given that the chappie in the right seat could be a rookie, I do not believe 4 years is enough exposure time, especially when it is often the captain who has to make the desicions, even about ground handling matters down route. In the second and lower level airlines, the organisational back-up is minimal. There are no station managers. The general answer from mission control is "you're on the spot. do what you think's best."

On the technical side, 4 years is a short time to have experienced any significant snags or querks; the sort of apparently minor events, that if mishandled can become major ones. The more so in our 2 crew ever more sophisticated a/c.

2 experienced crew members can, even if a little tired, keep the show on the rails by drawing on experience. Under the same levels of tiredness, a raw crew IMHO are more susceptible to mistakes, possibly because the monitoring process might be weakened. Shoot me down if you will; it's only a discussion point.

The matter of total cockpit crew hours (experience) has been raised before. I felt it was too lightly dismissed by the companies.

Regarding pricing and the publics attitude to crew T's & C's; and the idea that they only travel because of the price. This is certainly true in the LCA's. Many of the pax are flying for the first time because it's so cheap. The enviroment is bursting at the seams. The delays are contributed to by the massive rise in traffic at a faster rate than the system can adjust. I thought the airports planning forum and scheduling committtees were supposed to prevent this over burdening. Seems it's not quite right, yet. There was once a phrase in the package holiday sector, when people were decrying the loss of ethnic values in some countries whose only major income is tourisim; "We are polluting the world with people." That's what low pricing does. The demand become greater than the supply of experienced crews. By lowering the thresholds you can increase supply.

Any views??

[crackerjack]

Rat 5,

Well said.


c.

[Micawber]

These problems are not only in the AIRLINE enviroment guys, look around at most operations in the air and you find the same pressures of do it or else......

[WangEye]

macaskill

One area you might usefully investigate is legislation - i.e. pursue ministers, etc.

The Working Hours Directive leading to Regulations (1998, which became effective in December 1999), limits hours, specifies breaks, etc, BUT EXCLUDES (among other sectors) TRANSPORT - pilots (and train, bus, lorry drivers, etc) work in Transport!

There are obvious and stated reasons why Transport was excluded but perhaps you could raise questions about why the work/life balance of factory workers, et al, is protected whilst that of people, equally deserving anyway, whose personal actions/reactions do, everyday, directly, and at times tragically, affect the lives of the general public, was omitted. Strength of the Transport Industry lobby? Complexity? 24/7 operations? This is a political question, most easily solved by legislation rather than unions locally fighting T&C's. The more public outcry, to balance the powerful industry lobby, the better- so power to your pen, macaskill.

"I still need more healthy rest in order to work at my best. My health is the main capital I have and I want to administer it intelligently."
Ernest Hemingway

WE (not a pilot!)

[AC-DC]

I do not post on this thread as I am not a pro, but this time it is different.
It seems that I have made the right decision not to fly commercially. A friend who is a captain in one of the airlines have arrange a jump seat ride for me, talking with the crew and my friend convinced me that the only way to kill an hobby and a passion is to turn it into a profession.
I am involved in aviation for many years now. In a previous life, while working for a large a/c manufacturing company the union called for a strike, they wanted improved pay and conditions. The company was heading into bad weather as a major project was on the balance. I have disagreed with the union and started my own campaign. I called against the strike and suggested that the work-force agree to an average of 10% reduction in salary if the management guarantee to avoid forced redundancies, I was the only one who was willing to do it, the rest thought that I was drunk. Ten months latter 18,000 people lost their jobs. It is in your power to change the way you work, one person can’t do it, all of you can. Do not be afraid to face the management, they can not operate without you and they can not replace you very easily. If your union (BALPA or whatever) is good for nothing it is up to you to change the situation, you have elected them, no one will fight you battles but you. Stop complaining and prepare your case, fight the PR front, educated the public, only public opinion can make the CAA and your management changes the way they operate and you work. They will tell the world how much you earn, be ready to tell them that you are willing to wave some of it in return for rest time (don’t worry, the pay will go up 4 years latter anyway). There will be casualties on the way, you, yes you, the one who reads it might be one of them. Are you willing to fight for your beliefs and professional pride? No? Then do not complain.

[CI300]

I agree with the fact that we are all being pushed more and more. I wince a the though of some of the duty times my friends do. But just to bring two things out of this thread; what do ops do for safety? After working x amount of night shifts and overtime with my modest pay talks going sour I managed to plan a flight with the wrong aircraft. (Allthough there were other external factors that led to me doing this.) The crew didnt pick up the mistake, nor did the fueling guys, nor the engineers. Two hours into the flight a workmate did. Just luck that this flight was not a fuel critical sector and the aircraft I was working with had a higher burn than the one they were flying. What if it was the flight that had an engine shut down at etp because of a tired engineer missing something, the day that the met guys hadnt got the winds just right, the day that the guy in the notam office missed the notice that divert airport 'a' was closed. Its a team effort.
Pilots hate managers and vice versea, well everyone has problems with managment, but at the end of the day. If the were not running the company it wouldnt exist and we would be out of a job.

In saying all that, I made a choice some years ago not to fly for money. I get to go home every night, I dont live out of a suitcase. ****** that for a life, you guys deserve 99% of what your paid.:}

[snooky]

I look forward to reading the article when it is posted here, but an article put together in only one week can only begin to scratch at the surface of the morale and fatigue problems faced today.

September 11 has changed our working environment dramatically. Faceless beaurocrats produce one edict after another which greatly affect our everyday working lives. As has been already asked on this thread, are we really prime suspects to hijack our own aircraft? If so the new secure cockpit doors must be a great assistance in our endeavours.

Why have our family been banned from the flight deck? Again complete strangers who happen to have a reasonable likeness of an ID and claim to be on duty or representing an authority are permitted. For absolutely zero security benefit we have had the ability to take family members with us severely depleted.

Mismanagement leads to low morale, and our industry seems to attract the worst examples of mismanagement. I sometimes wonder what a fortune there is to be made by an airline with good management, where the staff are not treated as an unfortunate necessity. Maybe an example exists in USA.

Over recent years and in certain airlines the pilot's role has been downgraded at the expense of other members of crew. No account seems to be taken of the long and arduous training undertaken to achieve a licence. This has affected pilot morale, and is due to internal politics between departments at some airlines.

A normal social and family life is difficult enough with inevitable working of unusual hours, but now there is the added worry that even a glass of wine on the day before a flight could in some circumstances be career threatening.

Finally there seems to be a misconception that in order to offer cheap fares pilots must be worked to legal maxima (which themselves need addressing) and paid as little as possible. I think personally that most passengers would be happy to pay an extra 50p to have well rested pilots at the controls, and for 50p a passenger pilots hours could probably be halved.

Plenty of scope for future articles, I think!

[RAT 5]

It would seem that this thread, and the one "pilots against hours increase" have mated together. The posts are now becoming idebtical in opinion. Add the easyjet strike thread to them and there there is some troylism.
No doubt that this is a red hot topic, but what can be done about it? All this voting with your feet is not an option. They're all the same. A bit of continental style pilot power to oust the dim-wits who've created this, perhaps? At least then the correct feet will be walking!

IMHO it is the pilots and engineers who have the most longterm career attitude towards an airline, and thus the most stalwart attitude to its survival. Senior management do not seem to have that same longterm devotion. Shortterm profits and bonuses drive their passion. Somehow, though, pilots are branded as wanting to drive the airlines into fiancial ruin and thus lose their jobs. I can't quite fathom this. Daft idea to me.
If you read the application forms for airline recruitment, the qualifications and characteristcs required to join air-whoever, they demand 5* everything. Managament & team leadership skills, apptitude, flexibility, dynamisim, a host of scholarly achievemnts. Assuming they select people who meet all this, how is it they think we are all suicidal towards our careers. I can't think of any european airline that has gone bust because of the attitudes & actions of the crews, but I can think of many who have been saved from the brink by the attitude & actions of the crews. Pilot costs pale into insignificance compared to the c@*k -ups made my managment.

Anyway; do you think, bewteen all 3 threads, we've said it all an reached conscensus? Perhaps someone might like to start a post about solutions?????

[boredcounter]

Sorry to backtrack a few days, only picked up on the thread.

Anyone but anyone involved in the operation of an aircraft, from grooming, through bag chucking, payroll, etc to the MD of an Airline can influence the safe operation of said aircraft.

Take Capt Blood-pressure, and F/O Newtoline. What happens after 60 Hrs on shift over 4-5 nights we snap. 0600 Capt B-P not at his best, said groundie is best compared to a Polar Bear straight out of hibernation. Capt B-P now adopts same. Poor old F/O. Oh and the leading edge slats Sir?

No let us not let it happen again, CRM aside from morale, but moral a contributing factor.

Do not belittle ANY input into flight safety. Take-offs to equal landings is the only mandatory target the industry needs to achieve.

Just remember (and it applies to all trades), Payroll are the most important part of an airline on payday, staff travel as hols need booking, and noone goes nowhere without a clean log :)

[Maximum]

......yes and I've heard a butterfly flapping its wings in Tibet caused a hurricane in Miami......

[unwiseowl]

Was the article published on Sunday? Has anyone got a link to it?

[Dan Winterland]

My twopenny's worth:

I'd feel happier flying an aircraft being rested and having consumed one beer than flying when severely fatigued. I base this statement on my driving performance after operating on a 10 hour two crew return flight from Florida having taken off at midnight body time with irregular and disturbed rest. Please bear in mind I had just recently landed the aircraft!

Also, I heard a fellow pilot once comment "If our pilots made as many errors our management makes, there would be aircraft wrecks all over Southern England".

[cargo boy]

Source: The Sunday Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,2764-571635,00.html)

February 09, 2003
Overworked pilots snooze at controls
Mark Macaskill

SOME pilots for Britain’s leading budget airlines claim they often doze off at the controls during long working days.Flight deck staff say that long working hours and few breaks mean they are increasingly putting the safety of passengers at risk.

Under Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) rules, pilots are permitted to fly up to 100 hours per month. However, some claim they are reaching their monthly limit within a fortnight, which means they struggle to keep awake and miss radio calls from air traffic control.

More than 20 pilots from seven airlines were interviewed by The Sunday Times, five of whom admitted to falling asleep briefly at the controls. Most expressed deep concern over the number of hours they work, the effects on their alertness and the increasing risk to passenger safety.

The European commission is considering introducing new flying limits that could see British pilots flying up to 14 hours a day, which some experts believe will dramatically increase pilot fatigue.

One pilot with ScotAirways, which flies between Edinburgh and London City four times a day, described the hours as “frightening”.

The pilot, who did not wish to be named, said he often reaches his maximum monthly flying hours in fewer than two weeks.

“Pilots do fall asleep and quite often you are in the cockpit while struggling to keep your eyes open,” he said.

“Concern is rife about the number of hours we work and in my opinion the regulations are exploited to the absolute maximum.”

Another pilot with easyJet, who also wished to remain anonymous, said: “The authorities know what’s going on, but nothing will change until there is a nasty incident and the cause is found to be fatigue. The rostering system is decided daily and causes absolute chaos.”

Safety risks posed by tired pilots have also been voiced by air traffic controllers. According to one pilot, concerns were raised by London controllers in spring 2001 after pilots with one leading airline were given “complicated” landing instructions late at night, which had to be “repeated several times” to ensure they were carried out properly.

Bob Osborne, 62, a retired commercial pilot, refuses to travel on night charters after his experiences working for a leading airline for 10 years.

“I noticed very strange behaviour patterns among staff after long shifts, as fatigue had a similar effect to alcohol. It was hard to hold a conversation.

“While flying, it was quite common for pilots to grab a few minutes’ sleep because they were so tired. My worry is that pilots are being pushed to the extreme of fatigue where the simple things, like engaging automatics on approach, can catch you out.”

A senior pilot with Ryanair, who was interviewed by The Sunday Times last week but wished to remain anonymous for fear of losing his job, added: “Officially, nobody sleeps on the flight deck, but unofficially it does happen. In many cases, a quick nap, provided your co-pilot is on the ball, can be beneficial.”

Last year research funded by the CAA found that 10 out of 12 pilots who flew between London and Miami showed signs of dozing off on the flight deck. A special wristwatch that detects when pilots fall asleep and emits a high-pitched alarm to wake them up is being tested. Further trials are planned later this year on domestic and European routes.

Mike Nash, director of the Independent Pilots’ Association, which represents about 1,000 pilots from Britain’s leading airlines, added: “Pilot fatigue is a big concern in the industry now. There’s no doubt that some pilots are struggling to keep awake while flying. Some airlines are pushing to get the maximum number of hours out of their staff.”

A spokesman for Ryanair denied that pilots were being overworked. “Our crews operate to the highest European safety standards. We have a very low turnover of pilots and a large number of new applicants,” he said.

“If pilots have concerns they should raise them with the company. Safety is a priority and if it’s an issue among staff it has to be taken seriously.”

Jerry Froggett, a spokesman for ScotAirways, said: “I would not like to comment on one individual’s views. We know the majority of staff are happy working for the company and one individual’s view does not represent the whole.”

A spokesman for easyJet said: “We know about the problems of pilots and pilot rostering, and that is being addressed by management. We take safety issues very seriously. Our staff only work a maximum of 750 hours per year, which I think demonstrates we do not have a problem overall.”

Typical management deception "Our staff only work a maximum of 750 hours per year, which I think demonstrates we do not have a problem overall." They forget to mention that that is flight hours and not duty hours or the fact that it is spread unevenly through multiple circadian cycles. Trust management as far as you can throw them. :yuk:

[411A]

I wonder just how MANY circadian cycles there actually are between Edinburgh~London City.

Pilots have ALWAYS bit@hed about their duty times, no matter HOW many hours they fly. Going home/hotel and actually sleeping instead of proping up the bar....is recommended.:rolleyes: :eek:

[OZZY AIRBORNE]

Circadian rhythms just means daily rhythms, which can be affected by many factors apart from the obvious time zone change.American police forces discovered that when they rostered plods for 4 months of earlies followed by 4 months of days, then 4 months of nights, more crimes were solved, less sick days were taken and the accident rate decreased significantly. Pilots rosters are so random that you never get a chance to adjust to a particular daily cycle, apart from the night freight boys.
Unfortunately the police model would be unworkable in an airline environment, not to mention unacceptable by most pilots.

[411A]

OZZY

Interesting about the police...seems it works for them.

Worked for a carrier in south asia a few years ago. Always thought they had a completely fair and unbiased roster pattern.
They asked for each tech crew to state which flight(s) they preferred, and did their very best to assign same.
For example, many liked to fly to LHR (2-3 day layover) or SYD (7 days).
OTOH, some (yours truly) preferred NRT and FRA.
You could request as many of these as you liked...and if no one else wanted 'em...they were yours.

Of course, no one liked the KWI and DHA turnarounds, so these were apportioned fairly to all.

Worked for them anyway
IF airlines would ASK crew for their opinions...they might just be surprised.:eek:

[Scando]

So, instead of looking into work patterns, duty hours, number of pilots and rest requirements, they are developing a wristwatch which will detect when pilots fall asleep? And then wake them up?

Why not make one that can detect why pilots fall asleep? And then sack the management?
:)

[411A]

Scando,
Why sack management?
IF pilots cannot get adequate rest....maybe, just maybe it is their own fault. Poor planning perhaps?

The ONLY time I was not able to sleep in a hotel (anytime of the day) was in the Hilton in SFO many years ago. Opera music was coming from the next room so called same and asked the broad if she was practicing for the Metropolitan Opera.

Turned out she was...for the 8pm performance

Voice like a schrew.....:yuk:

[FlapsOne]

411A

The problem is, with the way many rostering petterns seem to be developing, that planning your rest is just about impossible.

V. early flight one day, v.early standby the next, suddenly change to a night trip crewing in at the same time as your body says it's time for bed.

Why should anyone have to do an exam containing all that stuff about circadian rhythms if the planners don't take a blind bit of notice?

All company planning staff (schedule writers, rostering/crewing staff and Ops staff) should have to pass the Human Performance exam before getting the job.

[Capt Pit Bull]

Look 411a,

Early start, out of bed at 0430
Not technically early start, but still out of bed at 0430
Early start, out of bed approx 0400
Not technically early start, but still out of bed at 0430

So far, No probs. Body has now adjusted to 0400 wakeup, by making me sleepy by 1900-2000 ish the previous evening. Solution? I go to sleep, and wake up 8 hours later feeling fine.

Here come the problem:

Next day: Report 1900, Fly till 0200.

Course my body will wake at 0400, so by report time I've been awake for 15 hours (it being scientifically accepted that you won't sleep reliably when you aren't tired). By 1 hour into the duty the body is saying 'Pitbull, its time for sleep'. By the end, its saying 'WTF pitbull, you should have been asleep 6 hours ago'.

Whole operation conducted within 2 adjacent time zones.

Are you SERIOUSLY trying to say that circadian cycles are not an issue?

As per usual, you assume that any comment by a current pilot must be baseless whining.

Let me spell it out:

Early starts? No problem.
Late finishes? No problem.
Chopping and changing? Big problem.

CPB

[Lost_luggage34]

I thought 'silly season' for journalists was a tad later in the year.

Bored with the Iraq situation perhaps ? Short of items to fill up the columns ? Yes, this is a serious issue but come on, let's see it reported in a sensible fashion.

Power napping has long been a known phenomenon amongst flight crew - particularly long-haul. Maybe I am missing the point, but I have yet to see or hear of a safety compromise due to this.

[Few Cloudy]

Could be an interesting chat if the Times (Pilots do nothing) reporter could meet the Sunday Times (Pilots are overworked and going to sleep) reporter. Preferably on late night TV, with a bunch of pilots on hand.

[Goforfun]

"Our staff only work a maximum of 750 hours per year, which I think demonstrates we do not have a problem overall.” - Usual pack of lies by easyJet.

[flapsforty]

I'm not qualified to comment on the article.
But this journalist did make a definite effort to get his facts right and to get his information "straight from the horses mouth" as can be seen on this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79796&perpage=40&pagenumber=1) .

No more than should be expected perhaps, but seeing how much rubbish is written about aviation as a matter of course, I'd say Mr Macaskill is to be commended for making an honest effort to bring to the general public's attention a serious but not very spectacular (from a news point of view) problem that worries many of us in civil aviation.

[antisthenes]

It strikes me that the Sunday Times has got it spot on. It would also be interesting to look at the statistics of road accidents of Flight deck and cabin crew after night flights.

[millerscourt]

411A It must be hard being so perfect. You are obviously showing your age. I have been in aviation 35 years and I can just about remember 7 day layovers!! Things have changed a lot since you were on the line. Nowadays as soon as you land somewhere,someone in your company is working overtime to get you out of that place as quickly as possible,even if it means positioning you half way around the world to save a few bucks.

The only time I ever get a 3day layover is in places like KHI and JED and that is only because it is too difficult to come in as crew and position out.

As for your suggestion that we tell crewing what we prefer. What a joke . It might have worked years ago when airlines were small and personal,but now we are just numbers and we get what the computer gives us.

[Dan Winterland]

I get the impression that 411A has little knowledge of European low cost operations, or European FTLs for that matter. I was at the crew immigration channel at MIA a while back. A United crew queueing behind us were amazed that we had just flown from London with 2 crew - their FTLs specified 3 crew.

IMHO, this is bigger than the current 'Pliots flying while still under the influence' issue, articles about which have appeared in several UK papers recently. I personally would feel happier flying after one drink (not that I do of course!) than flying while acutely and chronicly fatigued. I base this statement on my driving performance after long transatlantic flights having had little effective rest over the previous 22 hours (no bar involved) prior to reporting at midnight body clock time to then fly for eight or nine hours.

Twice on the long Florida returns I have been woken up by the 744's alarm one minute after the 'Pilot Action Required' EICAS message to find the other pilot being woken as well.

Another system such as the watch is a fine idea, but it is a cure of the symptom - and not the cause.

Unfortunately, the fight safety system is reactionary and people will probably have to die for this to become serious enough for someone to do something about it. IMHO, the rules are lose enough already. What we don't need is a increase in already long hours

[pitchtrim]

You have described precisely what happened to me this week.

I may only do 4 regional sectors per duty but, doing a bunch of earlies followed by a late messes with the body.

On the day of my late duty I woke up at 04:30 and never managed to get back to sleep! On the third sector of the late duty I (HP) made a mess of an approach and ended up flying a less than average visual. I was tired, but only then did I realise how tired. I was glad the next day was a day off.

Its not the total Duty Hours, its when you work them. CAP 371 does not give rostering any guidance in this area, it simply gives limits.

[Captskyboy]

Flying 100 hours in a fortnight?????? Thats the biggest rubbish I have ever seen. It is impossible!!! Do you have ANY idea how long the duty time would be? I dont think so.

We fly an averege of 3-5 days a week between EDI and LCY. 2 shift in any day are only one time there and back, then off.

SOMEONE IS LYING!!!!!!! BIG TIME!

Our boss (Chief pilot) has said: If the pilot are to tired to operate safely all they have to do is say so and they will be taken off that duty. I has happened a couple of times.

If someone is out to damage the company by lying, then they should have a bit consideration for the rest of us who actually still happen to enjoy our job. To much damage could cause a company to go under and we would all be out of jobs.

If you are not happy then gett the f*** out. Don't make everyone else misserable with your constant complaining!

It is true that the day can be a bit long at times, but we are all within the legal duty times as well as the flight time.

It is part of the job. Aviation has always been and will always be unpredicteble.

[HOT14ME]

Nice one Capskyboy, too many frgile egoes out there and heads up own bottom. Sure there are genuine cases in various locations but this petty whinging and untruths only serve to dilute any importance a point may have. Think before you speak and to whom you speak boys and lets get on with the job, our mortgages demand it!!!!

[PercyDragon]

Look guys....it's called Capitalism. It's the same in all other areas of commercial life, not just Aviation. Everyone I meet complains of the same thing. Ever higher workload. More stress. No more money. As Karl Marx said, in the capitalist system the rich get richer and the rest of us get screwed.

The only answer, I have found, is to work for yourself. That doesn't stop me getting screwed though...now I think about it.
It's the same old rat-race. Just different rats.

[max_cont]

Captskyboy, what an extraordinary outburst. We were all similarly enthusiastic as you in the first two weeks of our very first airline job. (Congratulations by the way)

I’m sure your very special chief pilot is as you say, an angel in disguise...and I’m extremely jealous.

When you have been around the business for as long as some of the pilots that have shared their dissatisfaction with the way they are treated/worked, you may have a less than rosy view of the world.

Your advice to leave if we don’t like it, tells me that you have no idea about the seniority system.

If you had spent 15 years in a company with 9000 + hrs experience and then that company had a management change and started treating you like indentured servants, would you be prepared to leave, take a massive pay cut and demotion to become an F/O, junior to a 200 hrs CPL twenty-something in a new company?

It the answer is yes, you’re a braver man/woman than I. (And with less to lose) :*

[Ignition Override]

Is there a British/Irish/JAR limitation which is equivalent to that in the US FAR 121 section? For domestic flying, we can perform flight duty up to a maximum of 30 hours (block time) in any 7 consecutive days. We must have 24 hours off during each seven day period. Because of the MD-80 accident in Little Rock (AR), even crews on reserve/standby now have a designated, solid, 8-hour "rest" period in each 24 hours. and if any domestic crew exceeds 8 hours actual block time, then the minimum 'rest' period goes from 8 to 9 hours (this can include walking thru airport, riding to and from the hotel, a quick shower and the thorough, by-the-book preflight! Unless you have a union, which might negotiate a 10 hour 'rest' period for all but a very few 'special' overnights).

Our long haul crews in a two-person cockpit are limited to 8 hours scheduled, without an extra crewmember (who knows, maybe we will have type-rated FOs soon...?).

For three-person US cockpits, I have no idea how the reg. is written for long-haul, but you should read about the exhausting nightmares for some DC-10 crews at Sun Country, DC-8 crews at Evergreen...add on an empty ferry flight across the ocean and then our FAA claims that you are no longer on flight duty. Read about which warning was on the charts for aircraft who left the tiny gap between South Yemen and Ethiopian airspace years ago.

Let's not forget, or ignore the fact that until a Connie Kallita DC-8 crashed at G'mo Bay NAS, Cuba several years ago after a very long nighttime duty period, which began in Willow Run (YIP), MI, our NTSB (investigative branch of the DOT) had NEVER claimed (or had the courage to contradict the FAA's attorneys...) that fatigue was the primary factor in any US carrier accident. The FAA was always smug about the impossibility of finding fatigue during an autopsy, and its conflicting mandate was to indirectly subsidize airlines by not increasing their operating costs.

How about fatigue rulings "over there"?

Pleasant dreams fellow crewmembers: bonne nuit, lekker slapen, schlaft gut dort druben (also bestens mit einer Jungfrau?)...:D

[surely not]

Each and everyone one of you who is complaining has a choice, either carry on working in the industry or leave.

If things really are so bad and so many pilots are feeling the stress then the mass exodus would force change. As I see it this won't happen due to two factors:

1. There are very few alternative industries which offer remuneration packages as good as those enjoyed by pilots.
2. The number of pilots who are genuinely close to breaking point is far lower than this thread would have us believe.

Am I correct that most of the complaining is by the short haul pilots, and specifically the loCo pilots? Of all the complainants you possibly have greatest cause due to the higher workloads encountered when compared with the long haul guys. At least the LoCo carriers are now offering better earning capabilities than was the case 15 years ago for short haul, non BA, pilots.

Re your gripes against 'the management', it seems ironic that these managers probably viewed their managers in the same way before they ascended to their current positions. Cut some slack, it isn't until you get into their position that you will have the full info that is driving their decisions. In most cases they were pilots in a previous existance.

[RAT 5]

S.N.

Once again the reasoning in response is missing the point.

The terms " less than you think close to breaking point" is a good example of this.

There is no need in this day and age for any EU worker, and especially those in a safety related enviroment, to be anywhere close to breaking point. There is very little balance between work and play for the average Joe.

Further, there is a hint that the pay is good so shut up, as you are well rewarded. Again missing the point and resurrecting the attitude that pilots will prostitute themselves for more cash. Not true, if you read ther easyjet strike thread.

A fair days work for a fair days pay is a simple request. If the work gets onerous then there should be more free time for compensation and refreshment. When things work to the limit all the time, they break, even the aeroplanes.

If we operate at reduced thrust take off to save engine life, why not apply the same philosophy to FTL's???????

[max_cont]

surely not, yes the flight crews could do as you say and leave. The mass exodus would cause a change.

The pilots that stayed to reap the benefits of that exodus, would no doubt be so overcome with gratitude by the career sacrifice of the few, they would insist that the few be reinstated with full seniority and pay. Of course if that never happened, they could always “sign on”, you never know they might not lose the family home. The fact that they worked like the proverbial to get qualified without any assistance makes it all so easy to throw away. Easy come easy go eh?:rolleyes:

Of course another way we could achieve a change is to remain employed with food on the table and a roof over the families heads and fight from within. That includes using PPRuNE to get the message across to the public who have no idea what is actually happening in the industry and how unsafe things are becoming. With responses such as yours, it appears we have a long way to go.

The fact that some of the managers were once pilots does not give them carte blanche to kick us were it hurts with impunity. There is no secret brotherhood. :confused:

[Zingaro]

Now if you journalists would like a European viewpoint then try Italy for instance. Come along with me and 274 other punters in my big shiny 767 as i depart at 1600 hours, fly an 11:30 sector to SE Asia, a further 2 hours on ground, followed by a 4 hour sector to an indonesian island, arriving at 1600 local time the next day.
Now all this with 2 co-pilots, ie 3 crew but,no rest facilty available other than 2 non reclining jump-seats on the flightdeck.And we can legally operate to a maximum of 24 hours duty like this with absolutely no regard to start of duty time!
Now, who would sanction such a thing, why Civilavia, Rome, Italy of course!!!
If you want a real story of ineptitude in flighttime limitations then come down & taste the wine in Italy.
P.S. well done UKCAA, don't trust these people to keep their house in order.:yuk:

[luke77]

SN

Your comments to lump it or leave it! How crass/ignorant!!

Point 1

Money. It`s is not a factor regarding flight safety

Point 2

Pilots close to breaking point are few in reality. Well....yes..I agree just this once.

But:

Isn`t this thread mostly aiming about fatigue and safety?
Most pilots maybe not at breaking point, but some may be a bit uncomfortable about how far limits on scheduling allow a 2 man crew to fly over to some destinations.
I would take a 3-man transatlantic to a southern US destination anyday rather than a 2-man trip. I feel much better rested doing the descent and landing, simple as that.
Have you ever heard of the flight safety chain?
So, don`t "lump-it-or-leave-it" on those who love the job but realise that the sharper operator when the s**t hits the fan is the better one.

[Ignition Override]

Those who assume that pilots can simply leave the industry without losing homes, cars etc only exhibit their ignorance or lack of true character (in being able to acknowledge the reality), and might be working in management, which, at some companies, requires little in the way of scruples.

An airline's CEO recently met with employees near an airport. When a pilot directly asked him whether he would also accept pay concessions, he started shaking his finger at the pilot (they say that his face turned red...) and talked about working very hard for his money (or for his "golden parachute"?). He also stated that his pay is much less than of Delta Airlines' CEO, Mr. Mullins.

Wow, what a shining example of top executive leadership. I hope that he is much better prepared for direct questions when such leaders go again to Congress to beg the govt to reduce the airline ticket tax, which can be about 25% of the average fare.

[viking737]

What is the name of this CEO?:confused:

[seymore butts]

Looking at some of these coments, l feel I have to add my two peneth.

It is most definitely not the case that long haul pilots are less worked than short haul having been on sh for 6 years and now on lh I am in a position to judge.

We have flight time limitations, sure but these are limitations and should not be used as a model for rostering.

Within these limitations is time specified for positioning away from base, however if the airline cannot make this work then all they appear to have to do is contact the good ol CAA and get a get out clause AKA Florida 2 variation, this gives a load of extra time for a two crew operation from LHR psn LGW - MIA for instance. 24 hours late we do the return sctor. Two days off and we can start all over again.

Most of our passengers are exhausted after this type of trip, this after sitting watching an in-flight movie and being waited on hand and foot. No thought about levels, fuel wx etc.

Most pilots can now no longer afford property around major airports so; generally have to either commute via another flight or a good few hours on M25 etc. This of course is not considered on the "limitations" nor is it considered a safety issue after a 14-hour day to drive home for 4 hours through the rush hour.

Once arrived at the airport parking the car is yet another issue that takes a good 30 minutes from your day.

We could all leave as you say. This would have lots of implications two of which are "we are pilots" what else do we do? Retrain after spending lots of effort and money in getting to this position.
Managers can generally manage but pilots fly aircraft full stop.
Secondly we are supposed to be professional and if there is a safety issue then we should address it and not turn s blind eye as you suggest.

[peepsmover]

SN,

Your viewpoint is rather shortsighted, and reveals your ignorance of flight operations. Pilots (you label as complainers) have been key players in improving safety. Some rules that we operate under have evolved and been vetted with pilot input, still there is a give and take with any policy, the competing interests of executives weighed against the safety interests of the pilots, this will always remain an issue of contention, so participate constructively or step aside for people who offer some breadth and depth to their posts.

I don't think you would want to be operated on by a doctor who was in the 24th hour of his duty day, so why would your expectations be any different for a pilot? I would hope that all positive standards would become universal, right now my union requires double crew for flights over 11.00 hours, believe me it really helps, because there are some routes that are just shy of triggering the double crew rule, and you can really feel the pain on those legs, usually on descent, weather is down to mins, and you might have to divert, and the radios are busy. I could not imagine having to land and then go on to another destination after such a long flight, like some of my brethern have to, that really needs to be fixed, or else we all will be doing those.

If you want to call me a complainer then go right ahead because I plan on "complaining" about safety issues until I retire, and whenever you get to your destination on a flight, be sure you thank the other "complainers."

"Safety Before Profits"

[TE RANGI]

Ignition Override

It's taken me a while to come across this thread. Now, to bring things back to your question:

The European JAA has not yet agreed on a common European duty/flight time limitations (Jar Ops 1 subpart Q), so it's still currently done on an individual national basis. As different countries/airlines have different regulations this has surely an impact on operating costs.

Here in Spain the flt/duty limitations are spelled out on CO 16-B. Duty time (usually the limiting factor) is based on crew reporting local time and number of ldgs and so are rest periods. Maximum hours/minimum days off for any 28 day or yearly are also limited (it's all pretty complicated just to give rosterers a bit of a hard time). Unlike FAR 121 a heavy crew is required if flt time exceeds 10 or 11 hrs (again based on reporting time). Duty limits can be streched up to 2 hrs at capt's discretion for unforseeable circumstances (a report has to be made).

Now, since this reg allows airlines a generous width, individual airline contracts further restrict legal flt/duty/rest limits. (Labour agreements obviously cannot be less restrictive than regs).

And yes, here too this (especially its horrors) is the favourite subject at any crew lounge or whenever any number of CMs get together. Hope it helps clarify. Cheers.

[jpsingh]

Well well, INSPITE OF BEING HALFWAY ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD, the problems seem so familiar and common.We pilots seem to attract so much hostility from management and are all the time projected as overpaid and underworked.In the process actually we land up fattening the pay packets of the Directors and CEOs who risk nothing and yet gain everything.The system feeds on itself as there are enough pilots available to step in where a few leave so where does thatn take YOU??Its a miserable situation!!!

[bijave]

Why keep bringing fatigue back on the table when tackling work load ? Isn't private life important either ? Are we the only profession that will have to cross out that aspect of life ?

I dream of a reunion of all European pilots and of a major strike that will lead to more normal paces for the same money.

BALPA in the UK, Ver.cockpit in Germany of SNPL in France are now becoming nothing if playing alone. They now need to get together and agree on what our prefession should look like, regarless of the type of airline you work for (loCo vs regular v charter...)

Are we just too stupid and individualistic to achieve a pan-european union ?

[RAT 5]

Is that not what the ECA was supposed to achieve? They were blowing the trumpet a few years ago about their negotiations with the Commission about FTL's. I've heard nothing further. Was it set up just to be a bean feast for the self appointed few?

I've asked this many times, and here again. In the early 90's the EU introduced the Health & Safety at Work Act plus other Worker's Charter parameters. Public transport was excluded, for a short period (undefined). Kinnock said that the companies should introduce compensation measures for it's employees until a more longterm solutiion could be found. The improved conditions of work enviroment enjoyed by ground (Office & factory) staff could not be matched in an aeroplane etc. e.g. meal breaks, working space volume, shift patterns. etc.

This compenstaion, for us crews, could only be realised in either shorter working periods or extra time off.

This has never happened, indeed things have got worse.

Has anyone had any kind of compensation package introduced in their company? I've asked this question to BALPA and ECA.

NO RELPY! Someone must know the truth.

What is true is the comment about social life. This is not just about working hours is about the manner of work rosters. I found it impossible in recent years to be a member of any sports team or enroll in night classes or do anything that reocurred on a fixed day or at a fixed time. The various rostering departments over the past few years refused to give what they saw as preferential treatment to anyone.
My AME's all said that a balance between work and chosen activity in free time was an essential element of good helath. It was impossible in most airlines, and with the increase in work load, I often didn't have the energy, or spare time, anyway. There are too many jobbers to be done on the precious days off at home.

There is too much 'turning the blind eye' by the CAA. They issue guidelines to roster departments but do not police them. Result? Airlines roster to the limits in a very unsympathetic manner. What do the FOI's do? The CAA calls itself the SRG Safety Regulation Group. Joke. Everytime there has been a conflict between commerce and personnel duty matters guess whose side held sway??

Come on ECA. Do you still exist and what are you doing about these FTL's? Who are your consultants? Crews from the majors. What do they know outside their cosy enviroment? I've worked short/long-haul charter/schedule for 9 airlines in 5 EU countries. I was finished off by an low-coster and quit. I've sent messages to ECA offering to help with firsthand experience. No reply.
I've sent messages to Brian Simpson and received a kind reply. Bit of a contrast there. Sadly, he said that this was the first letter laying out a case; all the others had been abusive.

This is too important to become emotional, entrenched or counter-poductive. For gawd's sake this has been going on for over 10 years and we seem no closer to agreement. Could it be that the boys & girls in the majors have their own internal cap agreements, so there is no rush forthem. On the outside the rest of the guys are being shafted every which way and need help quickly.

All CAA approved ops manuals I've read include paragraphs about the connection bewteen morale and saftey; yet they turn a blind eye, again, to what is the well known dire state of general morale. The biggest gripe is rostering, in every country and every company I can think of. The effect on morale and family life has been well publicised. The total conflict with all CRM training is plain for all to see, those who wish too.

It is about time the various authorities were made, perhaps by the ECA, to face up to their responsibilities in this field and not be the apparent puppets of the bean counters.

[BOAC]

Like 'TE RANGI', I had missed this thread, and the recent article from the IPA about the proposed EU FTLs woke me up to it. From a shorthaul pilot's point of view, the effect they would have on my life would be significant and would, I think, generate a need for larger PREDICTABLE blocks of days off to allow one's 'private life' as 'bijave' puts it to recover.

Throw in the recent decision to allow US Airways to trash its salary scheme and I ask 'What morale'!

[ATPMBA]

From an early post:
Total of 1615 hours away from my home


That’s not a lot of time spent in the profession. There are corporate middle managers and employees making far less then airline pilots working 50-60 hours every week. Some even carry beepers so they can respond to computer problems a 2:00 am.